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1.1c is out!

Discussion in 'Fall of Quel'Thalas' started by Krotos, Nov 23, 2018.

  1. Krotos
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    Krotos The Lore Judge. Brigand Map Maker

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    1.1 is out and available on MMH and Epicwar and, for the first time, Hiveworkshop! Here's a list of changes included in this large update!
    Download link:
    MMH: Click to download!
    EpicWar: Click to download!
    Hiveworkshop: Click to download!
    - Fixed Sigil of Clarity being permanent.
    - Fixed Sigil of Clarity not requiring the upgrade to unlock it.
    - Fixed Sigil of Clarity and Rune of Frost casting each other instead of the one the player chose.
    - Fixed Sigil of Clarity giving 750% mana regen bonus.
    - Adjusted to give 15 flat instead. Duration unchanged.​
    - Fixed the positioning of Evil Watchers so that they match the runestone locations.
    - Fixed Hawkstriders being untrainable.
    - Fixed Sylvanas' Rune Trap missing its SFX.
    - Fixed Fel Reavers' spells being wrong.
    - Fixed Windfuries being unlimited and Orange having access to navy.
    - Fixed Liadrin having a wrong hotkey.
    - Fixed Sylvanas' Falling Star hotkey being wrong in the description.
    - Fixed Sylvanas' Rune Trap missing the hotkey in its description.
    - Fixed Alleria's Straith position in level-up window.
    - Fixed positioning of buildings in acolyte's construction tab.
    - Fixed Mirdoran the Fallen no longer existing on the map.
    - Fixed Wretched Armoury, Wretched Keep and Tomb of Relics having no hotkey.
    - Fixed all Level 2 caster upgrades requiring a Sun Perch.
    - Caused some players to be unable to research them. Now requires a mystical store.​
    - Fixed Silvermoon Archers' training hotkey.
    - Now uses E.​
    - Fixed High Elven Farms using the same hotkey as Altar of Sun.
    - Now uses F instead of R.​
    - Restored missing audio lines.
    - I am not sure if there's anything I can do about it but I believe some of it got fixed.​
    - Removed a lonely Abomination that was scouting around Silvermoon City.
    - Removed an underwater sect of trolls north of Zul'Aman.
    - Reworked Silvermoon Archers:
    - Renamed to Farstriders.
    - Damage reduced by 4 and health reduced by 130.
    - Now has Multishot and Sentinel.
    - Multishot lets them hit an additional target.
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    - Reworked Spreaders of Disease.
    - Now called Plaguemancers: they can now cast Pestilence and can learn Reanimate and Decrepify.
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    - Reworked Anub'Rekhan:
    - Replaced by Seer Drannix:
    - Seer Drannix comes with 2 new spells: Vicious Spawning and Spidery Grasp:
    - Vicious Spawning: Drannix summons the Nerubis eggs to debilitate his enemies. The eggs deal damage in an area around them and slow. After they're destroyed they spawn Nerubians to fight for his cause. At level 3 it can also spawn bigger eggs that spawn stronger Nerubians.
    - Spidery Grasp: Drannix envelops his enemy in tentacles, causing them to become rooted and unable to attack. The affected enemy will take damage over time. Duration's shorter against heroes.
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    - Added Anti-Rush measures for Undead bases.
    - There are 2 Deathspires in Deatholme and 8 Protectors of the Nest in Tribulation Lair.​
    - Added a couple troll camps in some empty areas on the map.
    - Added some wildlife to make the map seem more alive.
    - Increased the amount of bounces on Noth's Pulsing Darkness from 2/4/6 to 4/7/10.
    - Sylvanas' Ambush Tactics aura works only on her own units now.
    - Reduced training time of all units by 25% to 40% to improve the flow of the game.
    - Updated High Elven upgrade icons to ones that match them more.
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    - Updated Glaive Master's Sun Glaives icon.
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    - Updated Ballistae's icon.
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    - Updated Alleria's Arrow Barrage icon.
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    - Updated Huntress' icon.
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    - Updated Huntress' upgrade, Halduron's Bow Mastery's and Bow of Light's icons.
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    - Updated Aelthalyste's and Liadrin's icons.
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    - Updated Troll Hunters' icon.
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    - Updated Mana Absorber's icon.
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    - Updated Wretched Manaspitter's and Wretched Abolisher's icons.
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    - Updated Vereesa's icon and model.
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    - Disabled Forsaken victory conditions.
    - Latest patch completely broke them and they were mostly makeshift anyway. I'll try to get them reworked asap.​
    • Like Like x 5
    • Winner Winner x 1
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2018
  2. TheKaldorei
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    TheKaldorei High Priestess of Elune Shaman Map Maker

    Nice shit Krotos. All I can recommenced is maybe some nicer icon for Veressa. idk why but i feel like she looks fat xd
  3. Krotos
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    Krotos The Lore Judge. Brigand Map Maker

    She had too many mana doughnuts. ;)
    • Like Like x 2
    • Funny Funny x 1
  4. Don't forget to mention that the eggs can be popped by the player too.
    I also found the ability stalk to be really good against hero aims, not to mention that the player can go through units with it, sawed me couple of times.
    • Like Like x 1
  5. Krotos
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    Krotos The Lore Judge. Brigand Map Maker

    Updated the OP to include download links. Enjoy everyone!
  6. Talinn
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    Talinn Map Maker

    Good job mr. krotos ^.^

    All icons are pretty cool except the mana absorber icon which inexpecicably activates my highly niche situational derp phobia against small images. ( Whereas all of the other images don't).

    AW YEA @Talinn logic.
  7. IceSpy
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    IceSpy Brigand

    Hey Krotos, I said I'd do a type up for you with feedback after the game. I have played once more since and so I thought I'd give more helpful feedback.

    I want to start this with saying that I think this map is actually very good. I think the amount of work that's been put into it is very obvious and that I think it's close to being a really standout map that I would regularly play. What I've seen from the current world of WC3 RTS Maps is that maps break down into two ways. The first way is that they have many factions and these factions can play in different ways and win the game through that method and it seems that this type of map is hard to balance due to its flexibility, but because of the amount of variance, there's a lot of replay-ability. Now we come to the second type of map and this is the type of map that your map falls into which is the split teams way of playing. I think this second type of map is a lot harder to pull off in making it a repeatable map and I think your map suffers from this problem.

    After playing your map in the clan game, I was left with the feeling that it was potentially unfinished or missed a mark or the map needed more play-testing. There was something off about it. I played blue and the first thing I noticed was the clear power-level of my units being different from each other. I had a unit which had multi-shot as a baseline ability. The only resource I had to invest into this unit was its upfront cost and it was incredible power and with upgrades, it was even stronger. This caused a problem when combined with Sylvanas' kit because she has the ability to stun large groups and this allows the multi-shot archers to do free damage and when you have two to three groups, it's a lot of damage. Outside of Sylvanas herself, (we talked about her combo, which I'm still unsure if it's necessary), blue has no complexity whatsoever. Blue has to defend a base to stop an additional front being added to this two-sided war. There's a problem with that however, because all you're doing is trading an existing front, for a new existing front. There's no pressure of resources, there's no strategical play involved. It's a situation where you just defend this place and then it leads to more events which lead to more events and it's all very forced. I played blue and I didn't hold the base very long, I was too busy looking at units and micro managing peasants to repair and being overwhelmed by the size of the map, but over the hour, I came to realise that the elves just won by bunkering and there was little the undead force could do about it. Both sides had ridiculous amounts of AoE and units and hero aiming wasn't very difficult and the whole thing felt a mess due to the fact that we are all stuck in one choke point. Soon that changed and you opened up a pathway through the trees and this was something I liked. This was a use of resources, (in this case time because you had to divert units to do it and also gold, you had to build the units to cut down the trees) and it was a good strategical possibility for the undead in order to deal with this giant choke. But then we run into the outnumbered issue. Because there are 6 good players and 4 bad players. The map is designed on the basis that at some point, one of the good guys is going to change sides and this is a bad philosophy if no one doesn't die. The elves easily have the manpower and resources to both manage the war at sea and the two chokes that the undead are forced to fight at and it eventually causes a stalemate (loss for undead).

    At the time I commentated on the basic nature of blue's units. There is little reward for managing them well and if I played the map enough, I'm pretty sure I would come down to the conclusion that 2 groups of farstriders and 1 group of the mages would be all I'd need to help hold this choke. The farstriders deal with the air, Sylvanas deals with the ground stuff and the mages fill in any weaknesses. I can't remember how many units blue had, I think it was 9? And other than maybe the ballistae, I'm not sure you've build any of the others. The air units are too weak for their cost and undead's own air units trump them. They are good for harassment and using the terrain as an advantage, but other than that, they're a waste of resources. They have too small of a mana pool for the cost of their abilities and there is no way for blue to regen mana for his units and so they'd fall out of favour. I then looked at the melee units and actually came to the conclusion that they're pointless too. Because undead is often so grouped, they have a huge amount of melee units that get jammed at the front and because of this, the elves' superior range will win the fights in the chokes. There were at least 12 fights (before players left or dced) across both blue's base and the joint base where this ended up being true. The undead built different units and tried a number of things, but pretty much every time, the elves won and the only time the undead won was when I as blue fell back strategically and rebuilt an army further back to hold a later chokepoint (not knowing about the seafront that developed afterwards).

    I think the two things about this map that makes it a weak map and that have made it be a crutch for a long time is blue's first base and the promoted hero aiming mechanic. Blue's first base and the whole requirement to take it for progression is a really flawed design. The undead were essentially forced to take that base before they could push deeper. Why? This is a terrible mechanic that seems it's only there to for a campaign-like agenda that the story is based around. You have a chance to make something better designed than the campaign and you're able to mix what happened in wc3 with the lore we've learnt from WoW, but because it's trying to stick to the whole key for gate plot-point that was in wc3, it promotes pretty crap game-play. Why can't the undead just build ships already? They own the entirety of Lordaeron. They have ships. They use ships to get to Northrend. Have that blue base be an integral part to the elves' navy. Have blue be forced to split resources between both ships and land troops. Have there be a gained knowledge when her base is taken about elven ships or something that allows undead to have a bigger advantage at sea and then the elves can choose whether to fight the naval fight or the land fight and if they fight the land fight, where do they choose to fight it? Right now, the elves can just split up in a 2 and 4 or a 1 and 5 or a 1 and 4 and still win out and this brings me to my second point. Why is the map balanced around the hero aiming aspect? Yes, we know once the elves died in Wc3, Sylvanas was converted. But, it didn't happen until a certain part of the story. You could kill Sylvanas in earlier missions and she came back. It wasn't one death is permanent, it was one story driven death was permanent. One of the reasons I don't like this mechanic is because it feels in its current state that the undead need another elf in order to win. One elf has to die and there we have it, it's a balanced game and either side can win. The reason this feels bad to me is similar to chess. Imagine we're sitting across the board from each other and we're in a position where we can trade knights and then bishops and then maybe a rook each. This is an okay way to play chess and at the highest level will typically produce a stalemate. Except in this map, there is no trading. You can't trade heroes. You can't trade resources. There's an infinite pool of resources on either side from what I can tell and so what I imagine wins games (and hasn't been successfully done in the second game I played) is a simple mass of undead's cheapest unit and you just use it to chase heroes. Get 2 groups and chase all heroes that can't respawn and then everyone else moves their army into the spot. And if you lack the micro to kite or keep your hero up, these really important heroes that are required to keep the balance of the two sides are swept from the fight (because if they don't leave, they automatically lose) and this will cause the elves to move further and further back and I don't necessarily have a problem with this if it wasn't for the timer.

    One of the problems with the timer is that it says to the elf players: "Don't push forward, we just need to hold. Don't take the fight to them, that would be a mistake." Except, it isn't. From what I've seen, if elves win a fight and destroy the undead army (which happens often), they should just push on and kill the undead bases. The timer causes this false notion of defending. They're the black player in chess. You're aiming for the stalemate for 99% of your games and you're hoping to run out of the clock. This promotes play of trading units back and forth and this means the undead can't make progress because they're locked in a choke that they can't go through without doing a hail mary play and probably by the time they've done it, it's too late on the clock and so the only correct play for the undead is to aim heroes. If they undead don't aim heroes, they can't win. This is one of the fundamental problems of the clock. You're locking the undead into a plan of A - Do this and if it fails do B, B - do this and if it fails do C, C - do this until success or you lose. Which means throwing huge armies in and hoping to get a kill or at least do enough damage so the elves can't immediately retaliate and just rinse and repeat until you eventually kill a hero and from what I see, there is no strategical counter-play to this. One of the things I said to you at the time was there should be pots. I didn't explain it well, but I hope with the text that's preceded, it makes a little more sense. For the elves to counter-play this aim strategy, they can be buying pots. In real melee games, you can buy pots. You can buy pots of invulnerability, health potions, mana potions, health scrolls and invisibility potions. I think health scrolls in a map like this are an obvious no-no, but I think healing over time ones would be a good addition if you made them expensive enough (2x the cost of a basic unit seems to be enough, but balance may dictate otherwise). One problem you had was instant healing pots. Now, here's the thing about why instant healing pots need to be in this particular map: they stop this undead style of play and allow for a way for the elves to deal with the hail mary plays. You currently have healing over time pots, which I think if I remember rightly heal 425 health over 15 seconds, which translated is 28.3hp/s. That's nothing and most importantly, it doesn't do anything if the damage if front end loaded. The instant pots mean you can kite and use the pot at the beginning of the chase to save yourself and use the rest of the kite to have units finish them, but with the consistent damage, it doesn't solve this issue. All damage in this regard will be front-loaded, there is no consistent damage, it'll be a burst and then slowly burn out. Now, if you add instant healing pots, the elves are promoted into trading units for potions and this means the undead might be more able to get progress in the early game in exchange for xp thrown at the enemy. I'm not sure it's possible for the undead to actually win if you add instant pots, but at the point you change an aspect or two of the map for it to function and go from there, but at the moment you're getting a false positive that the map works because the desperate attempts work and the undead are able to win from that. That's not fun for anyone. How shitty is it for someone to lose a hero that way and have to switch sides? I would like to say I am a big fan of Siege of Quel'Thalas (or at least the versions I used to play of it) and when I used to play it, it felt like there was a great deal of strategy. Purple opened the trees? Okay you build towers down there. That's a resource that I am committing. It's my pawn or my knight, it's a small piece involved in a big part of my play. He's built necros? I need priests with dispel. He's going air? I need anti-air. Two undead are tag-teaming? My ally can get over here and help me. Then the third undead player sweeps into the second undead players base etc, etc. I think one of the reasons the map functions better is that it's a 4v3 and not a 6v4. A 6v4 means that each elf can 1v1 and then there's still two elf players left over and from what I have seen, there's no evidence to say that the elves can't just match guns and 1v1. The undead aren't 50% stronger. The two sides seem equal in power. Pots mean the Elven heroes can stay and fight their ground and they're less afraid of being run from the field and in response of hero aiming and it means you're much more able to buff the undead by 30-50% and that means that the elves won't get overwhelmed by 30-50% stronger units hero-aiming. In Siege of Quel'thalas, the undead faction only needs to be 33% stronger. A much more reasonable number and it means that trading resources for aiming the elven heroes is typically not worth it. From memory, the strategy developed to trading buildings for units. Buildings have a longer build time and you could amass an army quicker than the enemy could build. In response the elves got an xp boost from the feeding, but it's a trade off. You're choosing to give xp to the enemy for a temporary advantage. There's none of that in Fall of Quel'thalas. There needs to be more frontiers or more stretching between players or more interacting or something, it just doesn't seem to function as it is.

    I'm sorry that it seems very negative and very ramble-filled. I was trying to stick to my points, but I really struggled. I hope this helped? Maybe it didn't and if not then I still wish you the best with the map. It's got some serious potential and with a few tweaks, I'd definitely play it over and over again, but right now it feels like the story to a single-player game and my decisions are premade and there's little choice about how to play and what to do and how to move my units. I don't like the lack of making plays and the counterplay to those plays and I think the finer points, like Sylvanas' combo matter less than the overall structure of the game and I hope I helped with that.
    • Informative Informative x 1
  8. Krotos
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    Krotos The Lore Judge. Brigand Map Maker

    @IceSpy Will go point by point:
    Point taken. I was planning to add a naval front by giving brown a spawn there which would summon frigates and transport ships that'd periodically attack the shorecoast. Either that or giving red periodic reinforcements through these ships that'd invade shorecoast villages. There was also a bug where teal had unlimited battleships.
    Also every time you lose a base, your income drops as well while Undead get a monetary reward and gain resources - be it new heroes, new tech or extra units to reinforce the push. About Farstriders - I forgot to give them the same requirements as the Hawkstriders, so that you'd need to devote some resources first to use them. Another issue was Red and LB not using their navy at all, which lets them invade via transport ships that require truesight to be detected.
    Undead have access to a fair share of single target lockdown, one of them being Arthas' Frostmourne. Sadly enough they hardly used it. I feel like Windrunner Sisters being unrevivable is a fairly crucial element of the game and I'd rather focus on improving it than deleting it.
    Huntresses' rejuvenation restores mana and they can also summon a melee unit with good health and critical strike. Dragonhawks I'm planning to change to become more efficient, but I'm not sure where I want them to be used: in naval frontzone or in a land one as that'd decide what they'd do. Another thing is that the undead didn't use theirs at all.
    Overall the Undead wasn't making use of its multitude of insanely powerful casters like Red's Plaguemancers with Reanimate and Plague, LB's Seers that can completely deny Elves any ranged autoattacks or Gray's Maidens of Pain that have Mana Flare. Purple is more of a ranged / damage faction as his casters get damage upgrades and specialise in nuking important targets down so I wasn't able to do much once the rest of the team stopped trying.
    Before 1.1c I nerfed burst about 4 to 5 times already and it still seems to be too much. Not sure there's a perfect answer to this.
    I'll add some more defenses to the conquered villages so that pushing back is harder. I'll also buff the anti-rush towers to be able to hit more targets as I wasn't satisfied with how weak they proved to be.
    I think Elves already have a healing scroll but I'll double check and add one, although not sure if they need it when the Sunwell itself provides global Tranquility. I may consider instant healing potions for Undead, but definitely not for Elves.
    I'm planning to add more ways for Gray and LB to break into Elven lands. One of them involves giving LB a special builder that can construct tunnels that would let him perform surprise attacks in the backline. Only LB would be able to get in though to ensure the entire Scourge doesn't just bypass everything. I also think Bows of Light generally contribute to the issue of feeling like a Ranger has to die for the game to progress because of how much healing they provide and how many heroes Elves have. (As of now it's 9 heroes vs 5 at the beginning)

    Thanks for the genuine feedback - it's posts like these that give me an idea on how to proceed further!
  9. Krotos
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    Krotos The Lore Judge. Brigand Map Maker

    Map posted on Hiveworkshop! Enjoy and spread the word, boys!