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Catalonian Independence?

Discussion in 'The Tavern' started by Arlt, Oct 11, 2017.

  1. Arlt
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    Arlt Last Emperor of BotR Website Admin

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    As I am sure that most of you know by now, there has been a great amount of turmoil in Catalonia in the last month or so.
    A huge amount of Catalonians have voiced their opinions about succeeding from Spain as an independent country, and this has led to Catalonia trying to become free from Spain. I myself don't know too much about it except that there was a lot of violence between the spanish police and the citizens of catalonia, and a shady referendum for independence in the middle of the chaos.
    What do you guys think? Feel free to voice your opinions, but keep it civil.
  2. Mesis
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    Mesis Brigand

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    If Scotland can vote to leave I see no reason why deny it 16 times for Catalans.

    In list of human rights I am pretty sure that people have right to have their own suverenity. (Maybe it's sovereignity??)

    State is created by people yet this has stopped being true in last decades. State is getting closer and closer to authoritarian government with ways to sacrifice freedom for "security". Orwell was supposed to act as an warning not manual.
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  3. Mangros
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    Mangros High General Brigand

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    I can say that freedom is every human right which I dont know the status of Catalonia citizens but if they are equal to spain citizens then I dont see the reason of making another Country.

    Some people might disagree with tis but we have kurds in Turkey and have you ever heard they wanted to make their own country? Kurdistan? LUL we are equal in Turkey.I can also say that even syrian people in Turkey has more privileges from our own citizens (Thanks to our lord and savior Erdogan)

    But if catanolian citizens arent equal to other citizens in country ofc I would support their indepencende.
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    Last edited: Oct 11, 2017
  4. Mesis
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    Mesis Brigand

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    I remember turkey killing all the separatists. (Armenian genocide)
    I also heard turkey "accidentally" bombed kurds
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  5. SvnmS
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    SvnmS Brigand Map Maker

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    I'm curious as to why they would want to be independent, such an event often weakens both new countries. I don't see much that can be gained from it.

    There is an argument for both sides, the first obvious one is "people are free to do what they want, so let them take their independence".
    On the other hand, it is also reasonable to look at this from the perspective of "does proceeding with this cause trouble for citizens ? if yes then it is not something the state should accept". It might seem like a limitation to freedom, but that is what a state is supposed to do, stop individuals or groups from doing things that harm the society as a whole.
    If such a separation does cause spain to become weakened, it is something that will indeed be bad for the spanish (and for the newly founded catalonia).
    As far as I know, there is no difference in rights between a person residing in catalonia and the others.

    I'm neither for nor against this movement, but if the people who want the separation want it only because they hate being seen as spanish and want to identify as catalan, then I find it foolish to give them what they want.
  6. Mangros
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    Mangros High General Brigand

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    There we go I wondered who would wrote the armenian genocide first.I thought it would be someone else but okay.Let me see if Im not mistaken it was Ottoman Empire and the Padisah who gaved the order to kill separatists.

    Turkey bombed terorists not kurds. YPD PYD PKK or whatever the fuck their name are.They are Terorist.
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  7. Arlt
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    Arlt Last Emperor of BotR Website Admin

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  8. Mesis
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    Mesis Brigand

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    Economic and cultural reasons.
    Imagine that in a group there are 10 people and you gathered 100 gold. 1 person gave 25 but received only 10 back. That is pretty much a situation in economic

    In culture they want their own language (which Spain is trying to suppress)
  9. Mesis
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    Mesis Brigand

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    This is pretty good video on a situation
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  10. Spampolice
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    Spampolice The Soulflayer Shaman

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    wot. right. First of all, Catalonia has no innate right to independence as it is not allowed, it simply isn't, within the spanish constitution. Furthermore, it is a part of the country that despite it's comparatively, ( now perhaps formerly ) rich nature has traditionally voted far left aswell as been one of the most fertile recruitment grounds for ISIS and other jihadist groups in Europe.

    While the economical reasoning behind this is to a degree sound, what is apparently ignored is the effect that tax money is not spent on the area where it is collected, that's not how governments work. It's true that, entering all of this. Catalonia earned something along the lines of 21% or so of the GDP of Spain, but that's not of any relevance. As if we were to allow nations to form based on wealth we'd have a West Germany again, we'd have a Venice. We'd have a free Skåne for fucks' sake, the list can go on for literally every country in Europe. On the contrary, Catalonia has benefited considerably from it's position and treatment of the Spanish state.

    The region of Catalonia saw amazing growth during Franco (see the "Spanish Miracle"), and save for a ban of their language there was no "oppression" that was otherwise not present in the rest of Spain, as such claiming that they've suffered great abuse under the crushing weight of Spain is quite frankly laughable.

    I'm not even going to pretend that the "referendum" was an actual referendum, it had pathetic standards and does not deserve to be viewed as anything but a publicity stunt. But hey, if they want to cause unstability and effectively force every buisness in Catalonia to move to the rest of Spain, put their GDP in the gutter and incite violence against themselves, so be it.
    It is damaging to Spain to have to deal with this, which as i recall is still in some economic troubles. Being a larger country in Europe, and forming a border to North Africa, it's rather important a country to keep relatively strong. Not only that, but while there is popular support for Catalonian independence for some god forsaken reason, there is in reality no country that'd be willing to support it. On the contrary, it is in the direct interest of Italy, France, and other countries in the region to aid in keeping it down.

    here, have a picture to illustrate what happens next

    Attached Files:

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