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Discussion in 'Lordaeron: The Foremath' started by Fatcat, Jul 1, 2018.

  1. Onyx

    Onyx GrimmHeart Darksbane Shaman

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    After a break of one month or more, I actually restarted to play LTF last week
    The lack of new patch was one of the reason why I stopped, another would be that it's kind of boring to play the same thing over and over
    But the main issue was actually Blizzard itself, the new patch bugged plenty of sounds on LTF
    And, I recorded the first game I played on this patch, hearing ud building the whole game, as well as elementals dying ...
    Sound was loud as hell, I'll still upload the game to see what my viewers think of it, but I'd rather wait for next patch with the sounds fixed

    Talking about the next patch, I think everyone heard it, unless the petitions work there won't be any bot available and working, so it will be a pain to play custom maps

    Anyway, we'll see
    And by the way, I can't talk for the others, but I'd rather enjoy a final and complete version of LTF with most of the buggs fix
    Than a new version with more content that would require a hotfix not even a week after
    I'd even enjoy a completly imbalanced version with races being solo like Risen or else
    If I'm not wrong Wooden didn't delete Risen content, and he was planning on doing Solo scarlet, not sure where it ended
    But maybe on this version try to re-add all the content that was left behind, I'm also thinking about Fel elves

    The triggers limiting evil to 4 players are still there so it should not be that big of a deal
    And in case it is, allow Wretched/Fel only if there's at least 4 players in alliance, and maybe don't allow risen if there's worgen
    I don't know
    Just throwing ideas as always

    PS : What's this new map? :p
  2. Yuilen


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    The map I took was from MMH. I've been editing in War3 since 2002 and I have extensive knowledge of code, enough to edit maps completely without ever needing world editor to work. In regards to LoboTron, he was some random nobody who asked a map to be deprotected; it's extremely easy to do what he requested, and truthfully, from what I've seen on MMH, it's apparently been done for years and years, almost every version of LTA/LTF and much of Azeroth Wars. Those LTF files have been "out there on the net" for quite some time. Now, I know you think the map had protection, and I'm sure Marsh probably uses some method to "protect" her maps, but in all seriousness, I have never once found a map that was truly "protected" by anyone from the brigandshaven or diplomunion community. I know that Marsh mentioned how she doesn't want to release an open-source version of LTF to protect "her" art models and terrain, but as demonstrated by Lobo's request, the art and terrain can very easily be taken and restored into a format that can be opened in World Editor.

    Furthermore, I have it on good authority that everything Lobo said in his defense (apart from him denying that he's ever used codes in games, which I have undeniable proof that he's used them in other games, just unrelated to LTF/LTA) was more or less true. He hasn't uploaded his requested version to any site that I know of, but likely intended it solely for single-player use. I also have it on good authority that half of brigandshaven is full of hackers or cheaters, so, I'm not really surprised. Same for diplomunion, really. Even EagleMan is guilty of this.

    As for when Marsh requested editors, well, I was not present or even a part of this forum at the time she made it, so no, you're wrong.

    I reworked Archimonde because he was pathetically weak. This is Lordaeron the Foremath, not aftermath, not Northrend, not WoW, certainly not rise of Ragnaros or WoW Cataclysm. Archimonde is the biggest bad in this game timeline, in the lore and the genre overall. Everything south of Arathi Highlands shouldn't even exist in this game, and seeing Outland's dark portal "connected" to the altar of storms right outside Blackrock Mountain is laughable at best and makes zero sense. Meanwhile, the presence of things such as New Dalaran, Deathwing, Yogg-Saron and Aegwynn/Kalecgos of all things is just absurd. I think I preferred LTF/LTA when the dwarves were just represented by Aerie Peak; at least then it was more accurate to the story than now. Archimonde is the "ender of worlds", the left hand of Sargeras, a fel Titan, and is arguably one of the most powerful entities to exist in the universe. In the Warcraft 3 cinematic and gameplay, Archimonde was huge, and he easily towered over everything but the World Tree. He was pathetically small in earlier versions, and though he initially had somewhat decent abilities, these got progressively nerfed for whatever lame reason. I buffed him, as he should be buffed, and made him more of a "the end is here!" character whose very presence intimidates and drains hope from his opponents.

    I tested him in a game, the very same that Robo had, and he was far from invincible. Rather, Robo seemed to complain the most out of everyone, and he constantly whined about how he had no "map reveal" abilities since I removed them from his Silvermoon Towers. I spent too much time explaining to him that he did in fact have map reveal on special buildings, and he played for 2 hours and 20 minutes before I had to show him where they were, and even then he had to be told by other players because of his gross incompetence. He's not a very bright fellow, and a terrible player overall.

    I found the Skull of Gul'dan had an unreasonable "demon fire" ability attached to it that made zero sense; if anything, it looked identical to a spell Archimonde/Kil'Jaeden use in the raid encounters for WoW, so I gave the skull a "block spell" ability, while giving Archimonde a leveled "demon fire" or "torrent of chaos" spell that makes sense. I've tested the effects of the spell 20 times in map editor tests, tweaking the numbers until they were balanced. It really is an improvement to the garbage "demon rune" he had before.

    The idea here is that you must prevent the burning legion from being summoned. I even buffed Dalaran just so it could be made more difficult for the Legion to take it. If you fail and the Legion is summoned, you will pay the iron price for failure, period.

    Many players spoke to me about nerfing/changing the ridiculously OP and imbalanced archer spam that the High Elves/Rangers team has, and after seeing it in action, I was so disgusted by this glaringly obvious flaw that I set about to making a new hotfix version to make the archer spam more equitable, if not costly. They single-handedly ruined the game for everyone else, and the alliance players themselves were complaining about how they were too OP. The guy playing Rangers told me this himself, and wished that he didn't have to spam endless rangers, even though he continued to do this.

    Most annoying is the Fel Horde warlock sound bug with the eye of kil'rogg, which is what I'm working on right now, or was working on, until I saw this thread full of ungrateful asshats and trolls. Still, I'll go ahead with my updates to this trashy, bugged map that makes absolutely no sense lore-wise or balance-wise, and I'll see what I can do. It'd be real nice to have the open-source version, especially since I have loads of free time at the moment and nothing better to do, but judging by what I've read of Marsh's posts on this forum, she seems too paranoid to ever give up an open-source to be edited on. Speaking of which, my friend is even more enthusiastic to edit this map than I am, and I'm only here because he wanted the bugs fixed. He keeps pestering me to add in Kalimdor; utterly absurd...

    As for the players you mentioned with their secret codes, well, I don't have anything to do with that. If you noticed upon looking at the actual coding, it's been obfuscated, and there are multiple ways to hide that information with obfuscated code. I don't really edit in Jass much unless I have the triggers from an open-source map, which I didn't in this case, and since the code in Jass was annoyingly obfuscated, there wasn't any point in me reading it to begin with, hence I overlooked what you apparently found.

    You've said this many times for months and months, and offered no evidence of version 0.28. Woodenplank and SvnmS for the most part abandoned this map, along with yourself. I'm sure you have a half-finished project that you've left on the shelf to collect dust for months and months, but that isn't a "project in the works".

    My version isn't crappy, nor is it fake. And I wasn't given any chance to do any editing until recently. I wasn't even able to post anything on these crappy forums when I made my account, to post my changes to the map, or defend myself from these trolls, until just now. Since you have the open-source version, yet refused to release even the most minor bug fixes to the map for all this time, I've taken over. In fact, I predicted to my friend that as soon as I'd release an updated version, "Marsh will probably fly into a panic and make up some bullshit on the forums about how she's working on the version and it'll come out 'soon'", and here we are.
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  3. Excalibur


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    Before that, why not ask Marshmalo first?
    If you show your abilities, maybe she will give you an unprotected map and make you the official editor of the map.
    The original does have a lot of things to improve.
    But this map is not made by you.
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  4. Robovision


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    Well I think Blizzard will get what it wants anyway. The only thing I am annoyed about is that for years people who developed bots kept this game alive and now Blizzard came and takes all the credit. Kicking them out and getting absolute control with cloud. I think it's not fair.

    Because of Blizzard's behaviour I think LTF should be compatible with older version of Warcraft (1.28, Netease I guess). So in case Blizzard will get crazy we can enjoy the game out of Battle.net and map can not be taken as a hostage. It's sad.

    LTF started to work again. From my experience it's more stable. In-game I met some new people who have never played the map. Map was dead because of the patch issues but now I think things are getting better :-)
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2018
  5. Marshmalo

    Marshmalo Brigand Map Maker

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    Oh, Hi. Well I appreciate you explaining yourself, though you sound like you've got an attitude on you already. If you look at it from our point of view, a hacked version of LTF has been released with cheat codes that is pretending to be the latest official version. People are not going to have a very high opinion of that on these forums.

    As your name dosnt appear on the list of cheet activators I think we can assume your telling the truth and your intention is to genuinly improve the map not create cheats for it. There may be a time in the future when I look for another permanent editor to LTF, as you know the position was offered some time ago when Wooden droped the project, but I understand you wernt around then.

    But if you were interested in taking over the project (legitimately, not stealing it through some hacked version), then there are afew things which would concern me:

    Firstly, you sound like you have nothing but contempt for me and everyone else on these forums. I'm not sure why you have come here with such a bad attitude on you. It's never been my intention to mislead LTF fans about when the next update is coming, and your right that its not right to say a new version is on it's way then start on a new project. I played afew games of LTF recently and the game is not in a good place right now, it needs work. Once SvnmS has finished with what he needs to do I will try and work more on it.

    Regarding open source versions, there are alot of art assets that I created or atleast heavily edited myself so yes it's fair to say they are "mine" in that regard. But anyway the main version for not releasing an open source version is because I don't want tons of unofficial versions released which is what happened when Azz Wars became open source and would be very bad for the LTF comunity. I explained this on my other post.

    Also, if I did gave the map to a new editor I would want the option to have the map back at some point in the future if I changed my mind. I already permanently gave LTA away, I would like to have the choice to return to LTF if I wanted to. If I gave you an open source version I don't believe you would ever give the map back if I wanted it, in fact you sound like a very unreasonable person in general, you even called the map trashy and have said that you have "taken over" editing my map.

    Its based off Lord of the Rings, its a grand strategy but focuses on the battle between Isengard vs Rohan, and Lothlorien Elves vs Dol Guldur. It was inspired by a very old classic WC3 map called "Battle for Rohan". Back when WC3 was new it was one of the few good custom maps out there and was one of my favourites at the time.
    I also love LOTR and wanted to create something in homage to Peter Jacksons version of the movies, but its a very ambitious project and terrain design is taking ages!

    I'm not sure how to fix the Undead building sounds but I can sort out the elementals dying and eye of kilrogg sounds, but remember these problems are actually from Blizzards bugged new sound system! Dialogue speaches also don't seem to be playing or even the special custom music when the plague is unleeshed?

    Oh I will definintly be re-adding the old content which was removed :-)
    • Like Like x 4
  6. Onyx

    Onyx GrimmHeart Darksbane Shaman

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    LOTR? Poggers, I rewatched the 3 hobbits and the 2 first lotr
    I also reinstalled bfme and bfme 2

    If the map is going to be rts, non spawn-base, then I'm gonna love
    "A new power is rising"

    Anyway, about the sounds yeah I did say it was blizzard don't worry, not accusing you of anything :p
    I'd never do that, even if you did some questionnable choices over the version, I'd never say it's trash or blame you for Blizzard's jackshit

    And yeah re-add the dialogs as well as imported musics would be great
    And don't forget to add the +50g dialog event for all the players :p Not just dg

    Have a good time and cya soon

    PS : Add custom dialogs to your LOTR map
    I'd laugh my ass if I'd be hearing "They taking the hobbits to Izengard" with the damn music on the back

    PS 2 : About LTF, one of the main thing you should work on now I rewatch my video, is the damn Gruul Path, path might be even worse than rangers on 0.28 LUL
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2018
  7. Yuilen


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    I have an attitude of dislike for this community since it has an unsavory reputation of being full of hypocrites, hackers and cheaters. LoboTron is not an exception to the rule; he has been doing this on the downlow for at least 5-6 years, and while you may find it shocking, I know a good deal of the people who frequent Brigandshaven who have used cheated maps for their own entertainment and use. While I don’t really care about the topic of cheated maps (most maps on War3 are cheated, you just don’t know about them), I do find it appalling that so many frauds and deceivers frequent this forum, acting self-righteous and “saintly” when in reality they’ve got skeletons in the closet; most notably, your admins and moderators for example.

    My version of LTF is not “hacked”. There seems to be a gross misuse of terminology on this forum, and it stems largely from ignorance on what constitutes “hacked”. There are no “hacked” maps, but if you’re referring to “cheated maps” then that is a completely different concept. Again, my version was before you posted here, “official”, as you have dropped the project in the past and only now have suddenly started mentioning it again. Had I not edited this map by request in the first place, I doubt you would have ever commented of any “future” versions here, more-so than you did months ago when you were planning to abandon the map.

    Yes, I’d be interested in taking over the project. My contempt is for hypocrites and liars, and I assure you, LoboTron is not the only one using cheated maps and pretending like he’s completely innocent. Judging by what I saw of those who crucified him in that one thread, some of his harshest critics are also long-time cheaters themselves. Disgust is all I have.

    As for you, I wouldn’t say contempt, just that I don’t believe you’ve been working on releasing a future patch; it’s been in the dust for months and you’ve been going in a completely different direction, despite claiming that this next patch is supposed to be the last one. If I were in your shoes and I had one last patch to release (which is very much needed to fix crucial bugs, if anything else), then I would get to work on that first, finish it and release it before focusing on other pet projects. Skepticism isn’t contempt. I don’t have a “bad attitude”, I just don’t have a gullible one.

    As for the open source, I should remind you that none of “your” art assets are ever truly yours once you release a map to the public, and especially not on Warcraft 3’s platform. If you ever bothered to read that enormously long (and boring) terms of use that Blizzard makes everyone agree to when they use this game, all content of every map, player-made or not, is their property. This may sound like semantics to you, however bots are also banned in the terms of use and only just now after more than a decade, Blizzard has decided to enforce their rules. When they enforce the next patch, all the maps will be uploaded to their cloud server, meaning that they will exercise full control of all map content as it is technically their property.

    Secondly, many of the art models you claim are yours were not created by you, but rather they were “put together” by you, or enhanced. If you want to claim it’s your property, fine by me, but it’s not really your property. Either way, I have no interest in “stealing” your art models, even though I have access to them already. I also have full access to all of your terrain, but again as before, I don’t really have any interest in using it for anything other than its intended purpose, and solely for the LTF map series.

    As for “unofficial versions”, as far as I can tell, that’s already happened and you’ve been 100% powerless to stop it. Releasing an open-source would be the generous thing to do, not only to build up the community that plays the map, but to educate every player on its triggers, models, sounds, etc, so that they could create their own successor maps to LTF and tinker around with it. You essentially built LTF/LTA by looking at the content of other maps and educating yourself on how to make your maps, and you took a lot of inspiration from Fall of Lordaeron, Lordaeron Tactics, Coming of the Scourge and others, combined with your own vision and ideas to create what you have now. Yet you don’t want anyone else to have that opportunity with your renditions of Azeroth Wars or DaoW, to look at your maps and make even cooler maps in the future. That sounds really greedy, if not hypocritical.

    Azeroth Wars didn’t have a stream of “unofficial versions”, it had a stream of “official” versions taken up by various content creators who all took their own versions in uniquely different play-styles and created map legacies such as LR, SE, BL, Genesis and DaoW. Imagine if Augur decided to be stingy and obfuscated his map code and made his maps unable to be edited or studied; imagine if those initial pioneers of Az Wars and later LR decided to do the same and prevented anyone from using them. Your maps would have never existed; Fall of Lordaeron and the other maps I mentioned would have never existed. You think releasing open-source will be very bad for your dying community; I think it would be very good and would 100% guarantee that it not only survives, but prospers.

    If you gave the map to me, I would implement whatever changes you want made, and I would add in my own content, which tends to be largely bug-fixes and balancing anyways. It’s your map, so it’s not like I wouldn’t make any major content changes anyways without asking you first. If you gave me the open-source and then later on wanted it back to work on it, I would simply give it back. I mean, really, I don’t get your paranoia, I really don’t. If you give me the map to work on, I’ll work on it. If you want it back to add more stuff to it, I give it back. Not everyone you meet online is a sociopathic bastard who fucks people over just for the hell of it. I guarantee if we could have this conversation in real life over a cup of coffee or tea, you would realize I’m 100% trustworthy and would have no problems with me taking a look at the open source and editing it as directed.

    As for “permanently gave LTA away”, it’s more or less impossible for you to give it away permanently unless you deleted your copy of the open-source. It would be bonkers for any map creator or content creator to give away their stuff “permanently” unless there was some monetary transaction or serious “gifting” involved that was mutually agreed upon. I’m sure you still have an open-source of LTA to tinker around with.

    So, you asked me before why I have a “bad” attitude, and I explained that I don’t, but at the same time, all I’ve been reading from you is equal “hostility” and “bad attitude”. If you’re going to lecture me about my skepticism, then don’t play the hypocrite and judge me before you’ve even met me.

    “If I gave you an open source version I don’t believe you would ever give the map back if I wanted it, in fact you sound like a very unreasonable person in general, you even called the map trashy and have said that you have ‘taken over’ editing my map.”

    Well to be fair, it’s also SvnmS’s work, and many others who contributed to its creation and synthesis. You’re the “creator” and "director", but to say that it’s yours alone is a stretch. Secondly, I don’t know if you understand the concept of “trust”, but this certainly isn’t how you do it.

    I don’t “sound” like anything, because you’ve never heard me talk. If you gave me the map to edit, I’d edit it. If you wanted it back, I’d give it back. I’m a grown adult with a successful life and I do this more as a hobby on the side than anything else, so I don’t really see why you’re so melo-dramatic about all this, but I don’t break my word and if I make a conscious agreement to do something, then I do it. I’m perfectly reasonable, certainly more than your admins as it would appear, though from my perspective, I can say the exact same about you. Nevertheless, I’m willing to look past that and get to know you as a person IRL, as opposed to just some faceless name on a Warcraft 3 website.

    As for the map’s “trashy”-ness, well, the code is pretty trashy, that much is true. If I had full access to the map, I’d spend a considerable amount of time cleaning it up and making the code nice and neat, probably the triggers as well.

    And I said I was taking over the map in your absence, since you and SvnmS had effectively abandoned it at this point. I didn’t just decide to do this all of a sudden; I looked at your forums and your threads and read your content going back months and months to get a clear picture. It was obvious to me and probably everyone else judging by what I saw, that LTF was doomed to be shelved and never worked on again.

    As for your new map, that’s cool. I helped make various lotr maps ages ago with clan TsF, SuxoR and later on with the original Blizzcraft, but those days are long over for the most part.

    And yes, I know the sound bugs are from Blizzard’s new system. They’ve also bugged various tools with War3’s map editor system, effectively ruining my “fool proof” map protections, making my maps unplayable (literally, can’t be loaded) and now I’ve been at a loss; I’ve stopped working on my maps for the time being until I can find a decent substitute protection software. Which is, among other reasons, why I was drawn to this mini-project.

    Also, I would have you look here:


    I am not affiliated with Dr.Richtofen, though he was in the game I tested with. It has been brought to my attention that he has been accused of cheating in maps, but I didn’t find it important as the map I was testing (LTF 0.28) was to my knowledge, not tampered with as you have claimed. I would also note that Robovision has been caught using cheats in certain maps on Ent, such as DaoW 5.2 years ago, but if we’re all playing on a working map that hasn’t been tampered with, then such players are ultimately harmless and can’t do anything out of the ordinary. I guess I am more apathetic to these types of players than your community is; if they aren’t playing on a cheated map, then I don’t hold grudges; as long as they stay and play through the game and try their best, that’s all I really care about. I only get upset with leavers and quitters, really.

    If you want to “start over” and have a legitimate conversation this time, Marsh, I wouldn’t mind a Skype call or some other IM or Facebook if you prefer. I find that face to face interactions are more productive, if not…less prone to misunderstandings than just posting on a forum thread.

    In the meantime, I found the “code” that other people were referring to, with Richtofen’s name in it and otherwise, and have since removed it. Since my friend, Skypanda, wants to play LTF without the warlock sound bug driving him insane, I will release the 0.28Hotfix as intended since it pretty much does that, as well as a few other minor changes to balance.

    Based on your words here, I can only assume it will eventually be replaced with the superior version 0.29, but for now, consider my release as a “band-aid”.

    Lastly, consider this; my entire reply to you has not only been genuine and informative, but sincere, and I have addressed every point you have made in detail. I took the time to address all of your concerns in a reply over 2,100 words long; if that doesn’t demonstrate a measure of my respect for you, then I don’t know what will. If I didn’t have respect for you, I highly doubt I’d write anything here in the first place.
    • Funny Funny x 2
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2018
  8. Onyx

    Onyx GrimmHeart Darksbane Shaman

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    So you're considering overnerfs on Rangers as Balance? Giving more aoe to Legion as balanced?
    Decreasing Alliance's reveal so he can never catch dreadlords? Forcing LB to betray alliance cuz now Draenei is ages away and that Argent is trash?
    Less trash than your current for sure, but I can't think of anything weaker than Rangers right now
    I would say Gruul Path but with Elune's Grace nerf, rangers can't stand gruul anymore

    Hopefully your understanding of the word "balance" get some deeper meaning in the future
    I'd also suggest you listen upon the community before doing those "balancing"

    I don't wanna criticise too hard since you're new to the editing of such map
    So I'll just quickly talk about Rangers

    First of all, you had no reasons to nerfs archers, they've been quite heavily nerfed since 0.07 and nerf them even more would just make the unit being useless, which you did

    Secondly, when the race only got one viable spammable unit, you don't nerf it, for the simple reason that it will results in being an unplayable path
    And on the same point, making the unit cost wood makes it even less spammable

    But now, after those nerfs, I will consider any ranger player using archers as trolls, or feeders, or noobs

    Maybe by nerfing those you wanted rangers to play with different units, and that will actually be the case
    You'll see players going full melee ups, mass lynxs, balistas and hero aiming squad, without ever taking trueshot aura on Sylvanas, not until lvl 2 ult at least
    I don't see any reason to take this aura for 10 units
    Maybe you also wanted Rangers to use their useless caster? By going melee ups those might be useful (kidding)
    Anyway, the whole race is now trash as hell to say the least, the only really viable option is to get ups and wait till suicide
    Such race doesn't have its place on a map like LTF

    For everyone's sake you'd rather help the ennemy by becoming their ally than try to do smth as trashy race and permafeed the ennemy till you die

    That's all for your version, for the rest, you can call anyone a hacker, cheater or else
    Doesn't mean they are still like this, i've been bug abusing on LTF for over a year, and I stopped
    You can say someone cheated on Daow 5.2 and then what ? We're a few hundreds knowing the cheatcodes on the very reputed "Dark Ages of Warcraft 5.2" and not Daow 5.2

    You can as well criticise our community and all the seven kingdoms
    But you do not realise that's it's our community that brought LTF the right way, the exact opposite way that your version is taking
    You can't edit a map with the opinion of one person, especially if this guy is your friend
    You'd rather edit the map on the opinion of a guy that dislikes the map, cuz that would be some true feedbacks

    Anyway, have a good day


  9. Elbadruhel


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    @Yuilen I havent post anything in this forum for like 3 months, since i was banned a weak as a threat for not "being gay" or "encourage LGTB agenda in the forum" or "prefer to talk about films and games than gay gossips". I dont get threatened by anyone and i wont subdue even less to this fucking nonsense. I told them "if you continue giving more importance to LGTB gossips than games and lore, the forum will die". They kicked me and the forum dead. So you can be sure that i wont give a shit for this forum and i wont put my hand on fire to defend some of their admins.

    BUT! I really like tons of the people that use this forum. I respect them and i enjoy with them. There are tons of cool guys among us and they deserve RESPECT. If you dislike this site, its simple: go away. As i did this 3 months, enjoy your life and talk with those u like. But dont come here just to blame inocent people, understood?

    And one of that great people here is @Marshmalo she is a great woman, kind and gentle. She has done a great job to create a map that tons of players all around the world has enjoyed on Btnet. She didnt get a penny for it, she did it for love to the game and to mapping. LTF is "her baby" and she can do whatever she wants with it. If she wants to leave it rotting in a dark dungeon, she would have the right to do it and u couldnt even say a bad word to her cause that game wouldnt even exist if she wouldnt have created it! You say you are a good mapper, and it could be true, but you didnt had the balls, the patience, knowledge, time or skill to create LTF, Marsh did it, and so she deserves to decide what to do with HER project. What you have done has a name: STEAL. No matters how you try to twist it trying to show you as the "hero" and marsh as "the ogre who stops progress".

    You may be true about LTF needs work, but you fail miserably saying "marsh is paranoid about people stealing her job". And you know why? Cause im a mapper too, and im creating my own map about Warcraft lore (create my own, not stealing as u do). Its taking me a lot of time, but there are tons of guys and girls in this forum awaiting for it, and i like mapping, so i enjoy doing my own project. BUT Marsh knew about my project and she started to talk with me, giving some advice and, specially, SHE SENT ME HER MAP, so I could use her models. I didnt ask her for her map, i havent exported anything from her map yet, im trying to do or search for everything myself. BUT she sent me her map so i could use her great work. Even without asking for it! Do you think that is "selfish, greedy and paranoid"?? Cause i think is pure kidness and teamwork.

    You may be a good editor for LTF if you proof your editing skills and Marsh like you, there have been others before working on HER maps: Swmns or Woodenplank. But do you know what they had in common? They both are also great guys, eager to help others and share knowledge. When i started mapping i had been without editing w3 for years, and i didnt know a shit about triggering. And they 2 gave me advice, teached me some basics, made some small tutorials for me or gave lill tips, to help me with my work. Im really thankful for them, not only for their help, but for their kidness and humility.

    There could be cheaters in this forum, it can be true. I even dislike several guys/girls in this forum. But we all try to respect a bit eachother, or at least look like that :D. But there is a "nonwritten rule" in this forum: respect the creators. All the mappers talk eachother, try to help, share knowledge, tips, ... And everyone, mapper or not, accepts and knows that a map belongs to its creator. And no one would even consider to steal others job. We all prefer to ask for help than to steal, to give small tips than to blame. And that is a thing you must learn before even trying to talk with Marsh about her map.

    Once this have been said, im happy to say that LTF works fine for me since last Warcraft 3 patch, after months of instant CTD. So maybe Blizzard is not doing everything wrong and they fix stuff step by step. And i will be happy to see a new version for LTF, improving it even further and fixing bugs, from Marsh or whoever she accepts as the new editor. But i wont ever play a STOLEN version, even less if it has some cheat codes inside. If you trully want to help and improve LTF, if you like the map and love editing, say sorry to the lady and ask for permission to edit HER map.

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  10. Koganesaga


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    Hold my beer. *cracks knuckles*

    Everyone CHILL THE FUCK OUT. There a great deal of hostility from all fronts here, that means Yuilen AND Marsh. It is fruitless dick measuring which will only serve to sever ties and burn bridges while benefiting nobody.

    Yuilen, be honest, you came in here pretty hot. Throwing words around which if you look at from a neutral perspective, could easily be considered, at best, antagonistic, or at worst, intentionally belittling and hurtful. Now you are entitled to be angry about the backlash you have received from an EXTREMELY protective community, but you must understand that regardless of how it came off, their intentions are to protect something they care about which is in a very fragile state. Try to not let any negative emotions appear in your conversations (which is VERY possible, don't brow-beat me with semantics like "we've never actually spoken", you know damn well what people mean). Being logical is fine, but don't be cold, it's off-putting and less likely to get people on your side. There is also a little needless throwing around of facts which seemed to only be done for the sake of tearing down any idea of possession; yes we all know everything is blizzards, but that doesn't mean we should ignore all the work that went into this project and it's parts. If I spent years on something only for someone to try and take it from me, I'd be pissed to, despite whatever grand designs they had for that work.

    Marsh, yes Yuilen same some aggressive things, but frankly I'm a bit disappointed with how you handled the response. I've come to expect more measured and constructive replies from you, but what I read wasn't much better than Yuilen. And while much of what Yuilen said was very curt and yes, rude, it was also mostly true; there has been quite some time since you said you would be working on a new version, which there has been little no evidence of such action taking place and there has been mentions of your other project which you seem far more enthusiastic about. It might not be entirely wrong to condemn them for trying to do something for the map in this period of great stagnation without anything to substantiate your claims of progress at this point. It doesn't justify them working on the map without your permission, but understand that Yuilen likely did it out of a desire to help something they care about, not to intentionally do harm. This goes out the window if the rumor about Yuilen putting cheat codes into the map can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt to be true as there is no reason for them to be added given the extensive testing tools in single-player, but I'd give them the benefit of the doubt for now as you said you would. And of course all the blizzard stuff is also technically true (especially the ownership part), though it should be irrelevant for this discussion.

    Community, this is NOT an attack on LTF, at least I don't think so. I think it is an act of passion which may have gone a bit far and was handled improperly. Yuilen expressed themselves poorly, but their intentions surely cannot be the act of pure evil that it has been portrayed to be. Rather than condemning, let us begin an open dialog; one which will benefit this map and the community going forward to the future.

    True editorship is clearly off the table as of this message as I don't think any party involved is in a sound enough state of mind. Yuilen has taken steps and shown initiative in regards to the map. There are some changes which you don't agree with, but lets not pretend for even a second that EVERY change made by Marsh and her editors was received to universal accolades. There will always be people displeased by some changes, but sometimes the editor has to do what they feel is right for the map even if it isn't popular. With that in mind, you see what kind of lions den you'd be walking into taking editorship Yuilen. Like them or not, these are the people you would have to work with in making this map better. There's a reason the mantle isn't taken up readily; these people are fuckin' nuts for this map, and their feelings and ideas can be overwhelming. You have to accept them and cooperate with them; ignoring the community you're taking charge of isn't an option (yes the community and the map are a joint package, non-negotiable).

    Now lets start small here; how about a polite and formal re-introduction from both parties to each other, with a statement of intentions? No promises are being made, no exchanges set in stone, no jimmies being rustled. After that, maybe some CONSTRUCTIVE criticism can be made about decisions that had been made.
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