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Is it fair to call Warcraft A Tolkein Copy pasta/Cliche ?

Discussion in 'Lordaeron: The Foremath' started by Spectator, Jun 6, 2018.

  1. Spectator
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    Spectator Adapt or Die Donator

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    Idk about you but if you have watched Cinemasins Review of Warcraft movie, one of the major criticisms he had was Warcraft Movie is a Tolkein Copy pasta. However I don't think that's really fair.

    Yes There a million stuff Warcraft has copied from other fantasy Worlds that if you take them away you barely have anything original left in Warcraft. Here are few examples:

    - Elves, Dwarves, Orcs are pure copies from LOTR both in shape and some in personality.
    - The Order of the silver hand is basically the Jedi Order and Arthas is Anakin skywalker tho both of their betrayals were different, none of them made logical sense and none fit the tragic hero Type.
    - Burning Legion is inspired by Forces of Chaos in Warhammer tho makes sense since Warcraft was gonna originally be a Warhammer game anyways.
    - Dalaran is a mix of magical orders in other fantasy books tho not exact copy from certain one while the idea of undead is not entirely original to Warcraft.
    - You obviously have Pandaria from the chinese mythology culture and Odin from Norsc mythology but that's in WoW and WoW lore is shit and non-cannon from my view. so this thread will focus on Warcraft lore mainly to make fair since it would be bashing thread if it was WoW.

    The point of this thread is not to argue whether Warcraft done huge Copy pastas or not. The point is that I think it's fine that Warcraft Copy pastad since it's true the orcs, elfs, dwarves were copied. Their stories are totally different to LOTR.

    Here is what I mean, Fantasy movies get criticized to death for having same elements as each other. Meanwhile for example an action movie or a World War 2 movie never gets a criticism for using same elements. There are billions of those movies all using the same elements. Oh WoW another US secret agent solving something? Oh WoW another World War 2 movie with Germans in them and where Germans are the bad guys and get defeated? Nobody says that yet as soon as there are Orcs/Demons in Fantasy movie everybody says that.

    You see Just like Germans in World War 2 movie and Secret agents in Action movies, Orcs, elfs, Undead, demons, dragons, Magic, Force/Light etc are elements of a story not the Story itself! So As long as the stories are different, it's okay to use the same fantasy elements.

    You see there is reason, Warhammer, Warcraft, Shannara chronicles, Dungeons and Dragons and so many others are popular despite basically all of them having copied Tolkeins elements in them. The answer is simple: PEOPLE WANT THEM SINCE THEY HAVEN'NT HAD ENOUGH YET!

    You see when first James Bond movie came out, nobody was like oh Alright Secret agent movies are now a cliche. Lets watch something else. Same is said with World War 2 movies. The reason is both settings have potential for tons of stories. Yes Now they are kinda overused as there are 100s of movies about them however same cannot be said for High Fantasy movies!

    There are legit only quite few actual high fantasy movies in existence and only one High fantasy TV series in existence (Shannara chronicles, Game of thrones technically is not a high Fantasy). Therefore It's fair people want more of them tho with different stories.

    Now next time someone tells you have not had enough orcs, dragons elfs etc in movies yet, Tell them have we not have enough secret agent movies or World War 2 movies yet?
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  2. Draupne
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    Draupne Won't get any more fun than what you make yourself Brigand Map Maker

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    Warcraft is known as the melting pot of most high-fantasy cultural tropes. Basically, Blizzard's routine has always been to add as many interesting themes and concepts from the high fantasy etc. as possible in order to appeal to as large an audience as possible.
    Mythological LotR races like Elves, Dwarves and Orcs? Check.
    Dwarves with awesome fake Scottish-Irish accent that are prone to alcohol and to invent powerful industrial machinery like tanks even in a renaissance setting? Check.
    Awesome metal-clad king of darkness intent on conquering the world just like Sauron? Check (Lich King).
    Everyone battling while wearing enormous, impractical arms and armor while channeling fancy colorful magic in a big shitshow? Check.
    You can go on and on, they basically add as many high-fantasy elements as possible from other franchises and gives them an explosive twist in order to fit with the Warcraft style. Everything in Warcraft is very Hollywood, in that everything is supposed to be fucking big and awesome, like giant swords, giant tanks, giant shoulderpads, giant numbers (10 000 years in prison for Illidan, rly? Makes his character unlikeable from the get-go, too unrealistic even for an elven character for me as a human to relate to). Hell, everything in Warcraft is so huge that they can kill their titan makers, slay demonic gods and doomsday global warming dragons.
    Oh, and sexy female elves because they got mass market appeal btw. Don't forget the cleavage, art team!

    NOW, that being said! Don't misunderstand me, as I'm not criticizing really. I'm just pointing out what what I think is Blizzard's business model when creating Warcraft content. Cause remember, Blizzard is a business, and if their story wont sell, people won't buy. Warcraft is intended to be big, over-the-top, Hollywood-esque, genre-wide, pleasing as many audiences as possible from LotR fans, sci-fi fans, fans of mythology, fans of guns and tanks, steampunk fans, etc.

    And that's completely okay. Warcraft is that big beast full of giant crystal swords, dragons, gnomish helicopters and huge-chested elvens warrior queens with a lack of personality.
  3. ponasozis
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    ponasozis SOVIET Angry marine Brigand

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    Giant shoulder pads is warhammer invention purelly

    And tolkien just stole the ideas for his books from different european mythologies like german mythology slavic mythology and etc
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  4. Fatcat
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    Fatcat Renegade

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    Doing a Thread like this is like saying are the Zerg obviously based on the Xenomorphs, and The Thing? Are the Terrans obviously based on the Colonial Marines? Are the Protoss clearly based on the Engineers, and the Yautja? Sorry that's the Starcraft Races but that is my Point. This is an Opinion from an Individual Person, Your exact Opinion will Differ. Please consult a Doctor before taking Viagra, and Vodka.
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  5. Draupne
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    Draupne Won't get any more fun than what you make yourself Brigand Map Maker

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    Ah I see, you're a type of guy who asks why every single thread X would even excist because of reason Y
    Yes, writing a thread like this is perhaps similiar to writing threads like the ones you suggested, but that doesn't make them redundant like you seem to propose

    If everyone where to act like you and go "Holy shit why did you even bother writing a thread like that, that's like saying (something retarded)", then this forum would be dead in a few weeks because no one dared to create another useless thread
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  6. Fatcat
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    Fatcat Renegade

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    I wasn't asking why the Thread was Created. I was simply stating that Its based on Simple Facts. I may or may not have needed that why was this Thread created I'm the kind of person who creates pointless discussions on Fandom. Some Wikias were Dead till I got to em.
  7. Zerwikaptur
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    Zerwikaptur Brigand Donator

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    I personally quite like the design of various races, sure humans and dwarves are bland af, high/blood elves aswell but with nice flavor of mana addiction, night eelves are imo interesting take on wood elves fantasy. Saying that orcs are Tolkien rip off is not true at all - sure they were in Warcraft I and II but they became distinguishable enough with switching design from "evil killing machines" into "noble, spiritual warriors". And sure they aren't the prettiest race around but they are still far from malformed, corrupted orcs from Tolkien. Trolls have completely hilarious concept and to be honest are one of the best things in Warcrraft universe, And I woulldn't complain about mythological influences in Warcraft since pretty much every fantasy world does that, even Tolkien with germanic, celtic, norse mythologies and old fairy tales.

    Also Arthas being apparently rip off Anakin - both Reign of Chaos and Frozen Throne came out before Revenge of the Sith, while Reign of the Chaos came out shortly after Attack of the clones, so Arthas (and especially his dark path) being inspired by Anakin is pretty much impossible.
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  8. EmperorFawful
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    EmperorFawful Burn it! Website Admin

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    To be honest, I really disagree with the always re-appearing Lord of the Rings-argument, as the only similarities are set within the races and both series being High Fantasy.
    Take it from the point of Warcraft I and Warcraft II, where they made Elves (High Elves) pretty much an Alliance race, which battled the Trolls for centuries within their own lands from a lore point of view, even back then.
    And neither did Blizzard say, that Orcs and Elves are pretty much the same thing, as they're totally different races. The Orcs always came from a foreign world to invade the human kingdoms, wheras the Elves were always settled in Quel'Thalas. The whole Night Elf stuff came later in Warcraft III.

    I would rather say that the majority of Blizzard's inspiration came directly from Warhammer, as it was pointed out before, hence why Games Workshop and Blizzard always had court troubles from time to time, when Blizzard used once more a Warhammer-iconic thing like for example the Steam Tanks and Gyrocopters.

    High Elves from Warcraft III are more similiar to the High Elves of Warhammer rather than the ones Tolkien established,
    Dwarves in Warcraft are on the same technological level as the ones in Warhammer (while they utilize Imperial stuff like Gryphon riders and Steamtanks)
    and Orcs in Warcraft had always been those bulky green skins, which later became iconic due to Games Workshop and Blizzard as Tolkien described them in different ways.


    So in short: Warcraft copied the majority of its stuff from Warhammer, but they turned it into individual content, especially in Warcraft III, where Orcs suddenly were the good guys and Humans and Elves succumbed to the forces of Undead. Surely there were here and there some homages, but story-wise Blizzard kinda tried over the years to establish an own unique universe, in which they actually succeeded.
    Some lore stuff is messy, granted, but some ideas like for example the addition of Old Gods (in homage to H.P. Lovecraft), the establishing of Elemental Lords or in general the creation of detailed maps for Azeroth and Outland in World of Warcraft kinda made the universe in its own way unique, even when they borrow some base ideas in order to turn them into their own ones.



    And as Zerwi pointed out: Star Wars kinda did nothing from a story-point-of-view to inspire Warcraft I dare say.
    Paladin order of the Silverhand was already a thing they established in Warcraft II, which came out in 1995, wheras Episode I of Star Wars, which actually established the whole Jedi Order thing as we know it currently came out in 1999. So unless Metzen read all the Expanded Universe stuff, I highly doubt that you can draw any connection as the Old Trilogy was pretty vague when it came to the idea of a Jedi Order during the Clone Wars.
    It's more likely Blizzard was inspired by old-fashioned medieval knight orders like the Teutonic Order, when they created Paladins.
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2018
  9. Empress Azshara
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    Empress Azshara Spampolice's Lil Gracia Brigand Donator

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    orcs in lord of the ring are shorter and orcs are mythical creatures also evles are also dwarves. you cant call taking things from myths copy pastatos and stuff
    arthas is taken from arthur and uther is taken from uther the arthurs father
    both take a sword who makes them strong and stuff
    sargeras is literaly devil and burning legion is devils army
    army of light is jesus army and drenais are arabs and velen is prophet.. so muhamed?
    Thrall is obvious moses who leads his people accross the sea to better land
    pandas are chinese myth and stuff
    flying dalaran is jade palace
    order of silverhand are templars

    actually every movie or fantasy game or book comes based on mythology or religion of our world you cant call it copy pasta from other games and fantasy worlds
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  10. Spectator
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    Spectator Adapt or Die Donator

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    Yes but the idea of Darth Vader being Anakin skywalker and the Jedi Order came out far before that. Far before episode 1 even. The expanded universe (Now legends) did try cover Anakin's story and Jedi order back story through comics far before films. Tons of fan fiction comics were written about Anakin and Backstories of Star Wars before prequels which later made them those fan fictions irrelevant yet they were still quite famous due to popularity of Star Wars.

    However The Light Side and Dark Side is quite similar in Warcraft's Light and Darkness. Just like the Jedi, Paladins ask the Light for aid and use it to protect the realms with selfless deeds. Meanwhile the users of Darkness only use it for themselves. Even the concept of Darksiders raising dead is not new as in Legends Sith used to be able to raise the corpeses of fallen and make them fight for them in the expanded universe.

    While I agree, Arthas may not necessary have been inspired by Anakin. However The way the Force and the Light side works and the role of the Jedi and Silver hand order is pretty much exactly the same.

    Overall as I said tho, The point of this thread is not to bash on similarities or even copy pastas. It's to appreciate them and understand it's for the better. I'm fine if people say Warcraft has drawn aspiration from the Jedi Order, I just think it's wrong to say Warcraft is bad cause it's not original since it has drawn aspiration from Star Wars and therefore not original. By this logic any World War 2 film is unoriginal since there are NAZIS in every one of them! Can't they come up with a better villain?

    @Fatcat This may be simple facts for you but Warcraft Movie got kinda butchered by critics and a lot of other people for being "Unoriginal" or a rip off. Warcraft did have a lot of problems but being unoriginal is not one of them.