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Kalimdor: The Aftermath - Screenshots

Discussion in 'Kalimdor: the Aftermath' started by Forsaken, Jan 4, 2017.

  1. EmperorFawful
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    EmperorFawful Gatsby Guardian Website Admin

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    As a player, I honestly appreciate circle-based bases also more, given that you can defend them better in most scenarios + they look better aesthetic-wise, while it's really hard to create something smooth out of a rectangle.
    While as a map maker myself, I also experiment recently with circular shapes to achieve an LTA-similiar look for above mentioned reasons.
    If you try to recreate settlements like seen as in Warcraft/WoW, you always face the problem of bases having too many details and unnecessary walls, which might look nice for defense, but actually grant the defender a disadvantage in combat, because Blizzard gave a fuck about how their game design might work out in an actual strategy map.
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  2. Hawk
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    Hawk The White Wolf Map Maker

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    Well yeah that's the logical reason, is every medieval castle circular cause it's easier to defend? No, neither is any of the bases Lore Wise in WoW. So I think asimetric design would make gameplay way more intresting than, circular base, two entrances.
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  3. spinel
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    spinel Map Maker

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    Well, it would be if the castle would be build on ground and not on the hills. Is Theramore wrong? Its 100% symetrical and it has 2 completely diferent entrances (ground, sea)
    Northwatch too... Boralus is even more unique. Not talking about Orgrimmar that has walkable walls and 2 entrances as well.
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    Last edited: Jan 7, 2017
  4. Hawk
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    Hawk The White Wolf Map Maker

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    I was talking about Stormheim, Argus, Azshara, Desolace has like 3 bases that are all circular, and Kul Tiras (which is asemetrical af if you look at the WoW map)..
  5. EmperorFawful
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    EmperorFawful Gatsby Guardian Website Admin

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    Asymmetrical bases are not always good to defend, sometimes even worse!
    Good example would be here Stratholme in LTA - no matter if you're Cult or Scarlet, you can barely defend it, as your only advantage is the choke at the gate and the individual towers.
    Apart from that you have the same ranged advantage as your enemies have.
    Circle-shaped bases take in my eyes more space to defend them, as you can build better production buildings in them, can tower them up more properly while still having enough space to lure your enemy into the base, where you can utilize the choke advantage better in your favor, as he has barely any way to surpass it.

    Oddly enough all circular shaped bases in LTA get always defended due to them being practical (Warsong Hold, Tyr's Hand, Kargath, Hellfire Citadel, Ironforge, New Dalaran), while I barely see anyone trying to hold non-circular shaped positions (Stratholme, Capital Palace and Silvermoon as main examples).

    If people have a cubic/rectangle fetish, I advice them to play Minecraft,
    but I honestly think LTA base design is probably one of the best things Marshmalo came up with. Less details, more space for gameplay-buildings, more fun in defending key locations. Best concept you can aim for.
    Kul'Tiras is not even out yet - what you find on the internet are maps, made by the fanbase or outdated maps from Warcraft I-III, which Blizzard probably retcons anyways the moment they introduce Kul'Tiras into an expansion.
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  6. Hawk
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    Hawk The White Wolf Map Maker

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    That's the point YES its easier to defend but again IS EVERY CASTLE circular? NO. Lore wise they aren't either and the reason all those bases are easy to defend is because they have one entrance or/and are quite small so you don't need to split your army to defend both sides.
    Stratlholme for example is large so you have to split to defend both sides, Silvermoon and Capital palace hard to defend? Dafq you been playing? :D

    Yeah but do you really want to see circular bases everywhere? Im NE, circular base, Im Legion, circular base. Catching my drift? Constistency isn't good out of all people @Marshmalo should know, terrain and (less) gameplay wise.
  7. TheKaldorei
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    TheKaldorei Shaman of UOS Map Maker

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    Oh really Fawfull...?
    [​IMG]

    WHATS THIS
    WHATS THIS
    THERES KUL TIRAS
    oWo
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  8. EmperorFawful
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    EmperorFawful Gatsby Guardian Website Admin

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    It's a strategy map, so Lore has to take setbacks, if there is the need of balancing out every faction equal.
    Honestly, I prefer a practical base, which looks nice over a clustered, accurate representation of a lore-correct base.
    Of what use is a lore-accurate base, if you can't defend it properly, as it's design is based on an instance or other similiar shit?

    Most of the circle-based bases I mentioned have multiple entrances - Tyr's Hand for example is a marvelous example for a good base, as it has two entrances and a safe connection to the sea, which you can always utilize in the early game for fleeing. Of course it has obvious weaknesses, but even then you have all ways to abbandon it. You can hold it from both entrances due to the chapel and the choke around the chapel with a small force, while also utilizing said second entrance to make a cavalry charge on enemy siege lines, if he's not careful. It actually is tactically valuable, as even if the front towers of Tyr's Hand fall, you can lure in the rest of your enemies into the fortified Tyr's Hand, where the four towers around the main base do a further job in crippling your enemies.
    If it would be a rectangle, it wouldn't work out, as the distances between the towers would be too large for actually mattering in a battle.

    Stratholme on the other side: Any besieging force can snipe easily the Death Towers at the entrance, while advising the ally to flank Stratholme from the other side.
    The city is a literal deathtrap for anyone, who tries to hold in it, as there's no escape route, when both exits are besieged by two large armies. Earlygame example: Blood Elves going via Windrunner Spire to Stratholme, while LB and New Dalaran push back Gray into the city. No chance Grey would hold this, even if Scourge helps. It's wiser abbandoning it.
    Drak'Tharon Keep btw a similiar example: It got designed partly lore based, but nobody cares defending it, as it's a death trap as well and furthermore too small for actually bothering with it. Cult loses nothing from it, it could as well not exist. It's neiter Circle-Shaped, while I say it would be mor useful, if it would be.

    Silvermoon City can be defended, yes, but it's again not a favorable position. If you defend it against an equal-sized army, you lose more troops than you actually bargain - holding at the Sunwell is more wisely, as you have here a choke, where you can hold.

    And Capital City is a deathtrap. Worse: It has even less space to build any further facilities and defenses within it! Unless you don't have a TP scroll or an air barge ready for escape, I would never defend it as Forsaken and straight retreat to Gilneas.
    Why?
    Because Gilneas has a retreat route via sea, has a smooth gate, where you can build up defences + a surrounding sea passage. Oh and because it's main keep is... surprise... circle shaped, so more towers can fire at once upon your opponent, if you tower it up further.

    Circle is superior.

    Wait till they retcon the shape, like they ret-conned the original Gilneas landmark shape, which they showed on the map in WoW Vanilla.
  9. Marshmalo
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    Marshmalo Brigand Map Maker

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    Well circular bases do look aloot prettier IMO, but some base variation is good. Some bases are kind of circular but not quite, like Tyrs hand.

    But the continent of Kalimdor is based on "the new world" aka: the americas, while Lorderon is meant to be europe. So Kalimdor is a much more wild and untamed landscape, so its right we should see more organic circular shapes in its design.

    The native american indians believed the circle shape was sacred as it is seen so often in nature, hence why it appears so often in their artwork.
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  10. Hawk
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    Hawk The White Wolf Map Maker

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    Dude you aren't understanding, I'm not saying circle design is worse its not I KNOW. But if every base is circle based then everything gets dull, because you are attacking into the same thing every time. Its always the same strategy, everything becomes the same. In LTA Stratlholme is different and you need an ally to attack from the back if you are going to, with silvermoon you need to land in the back, different gameplays happen. If you are attacking into circle based two entrances it will always be the same tactic same thing.
    But its not. Kalimdor is older than Lordaeron, it has Night Elves the oldest of the races and so does the Broken Isles the have Nightbourne old again. Except NE it shouldn't be more 'wild', sure more nature but definetely not untamed. Orcs tamed and cut through most of the wild when setting up, Humans don't care about nature, Nightbourne are more of High Born type deal so they aren't that close to nature more to magic, so marble all the way. Old Gods/Legion, enough said.
    And if we do go by wild untamed, circles aren't a thing in the nature.
    Anyway yeah Tyr's Hand is a really good example its more of a half circle and then asimteric in the back, i'd rather have more Tyr's Hands than more Kargaths... ^.^