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L:TA Information debrief, July 2018

Discussion in 'Lordaeron: The Aftermath' started by Draupne, Jul 25, 2018.

  1. Draupne

    Draupne Won't get any more fun than what you make yourself Brigand Map Maker

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    Lordaeron: TA Information debrief, July 2018
    Hey everybody.
    So, here we are once again. I didn't think I'd return to LTA as editor, but due to a simple twist of fate SvnmS and I struck a deal.
    Now that I'm back in town I'd like to make a few announcements about how the map will be faring in the upcoming days.

    L:TA will finally (and long overdue) have an official Credits list.
    This always bothered me while editing the map. LTA has been using custom map resources from various sites (most notably the Hive, of course) for many years now without sporting an official credits list for the resource creators involved. I understand how it may be infuriating for resource creators to not be credited for their work and indirect contribution to a map's success. This is especially true for a map like LTA, which has become very popular, arguably one of WCIII's most popular through the game's timespan.
    Making the credits list is hard and tedious work, so I will need help from you guys. If any of you feel inclined to help me out with this, feel free to send me links to any custom models, textures, icons or whatever that you can find on Discord and I will greatly appreciate it.
    1.51 or 1.54?
    This is a topic that is a little itchy. LTA 1.51 (my last version as editor earlier) has in recent time been considered one of the best versions of LTA to date. With the apparent majority of the LTA playerbase sharing the opinion that the map has been going downhill since then, I had the discussion with SvnmS about whether I should continue on 1.54 as is natural, or if I should revert back to 1.51.

    I have decided to continue working from LTA 1.54, as to me this feels the most natural and genuine.
    This means that I need help from you guys. I have not played LTA since 1.51, as I was burned out from the map. I don't know much about what has happened either, although I've been reading up some the last days or so. An active playerbase is very important for me now in order to make progress on fixing what people dislike about 1.54, and improving the stuff that has potential. Post bug reports, balance complaints, whatever. This is the main reason why I made the decision below.

    I will also reupload the old Lordaeron TA 1.51 version with improved compatibility with Warcraft III 1.29 to MakeMeHost, should people feel like playing my last version again.
    Official LTA Discord server.
    I've made a Discord server for the map. It's going to function as a hub for map development, and perhaps gameplay too should folks feel like it. Stick around! https://discord.gg/gRCczac
    Calm down, no ETA yet. Chill the heck out.
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  2. Lunelune

    Lunelune Known double post inquisitor and heretic caller. Brigand

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    What about your Elder Scrolls map Draupne? Will you be able to work on both LTA and that at the same time?
  3. Draupne

    Draupne Won't get any more fun than what you make yourself Brigand Map Maker

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    No, I won't. But I made a deal, so that map will have to be put on hold for now.
    I'm only planning one version for LTA currently though, then I will likely return to working on my own map.
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  4. Spectator

    Spectator The Changer of Ways... Donator

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    Well During the time you were gone some major changes were made with the CPs which people generally did not like. So for the most part it got reverted back in 1.54 final version. That was the main issue.

    Apart from that there was some terrain changes. Some alright some not necessary. There was also some changes to the spells, mostly good but some terrible like mass illusions on brown.

    Also one thing people did not like was removal of Sanlyn but can't blame the editors. It was needed since that alliance was abusive and it needed rework. Kinda like the 3 men horde you removed. Fun ideas just need reworking

    But apart from that the editing team done a great job updating tool tips, lots and lots of bug fixes and making minor balance changes.

    However another issue was the constant crashes and Jenkins error which usually happens later in the game in 40-60 min mark and higher chance the longer the game goes. can be frustrating cause you put all that effort and are close to win but games end with Crash.

    But main issue which had lead to some streamers quitting and some not liking the game is the fact that game has no end. I know not having a proper winning mechanic as always been Macro maps biggest weakness. First 30-40 min are fun but rest is just trying to push someone of a camped choke point are spamming units to kill a turtled Dalaran. Overall The Turtler has full advantage in LTA late game and the attacker is always hugely disadvantaged despite better skills, gold, army and levels.
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    Really? :eek: wth, well at least I don't agree with that... :]
  6. Lunelune

    Lunelune Known double post inquisitor and heretic caller. Brigand

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    As long as it's not a permenant hiatus.
  7. ShadowBro


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    Hi. It's nice to hear dat.

    Due to this:
    ill post you an essay :-), becouse i like essays :D.

    You have 2 options , start from 1.54 and repair things that are average, or go for 1.51 and add best changes from 1.51-54. So

    First of all I'll post good things:
    -reterain ( in most of situations, all except oshugun)
    -draneor rifts, and posibility of opening them through outland via portal opener( but its bug i suppose, that book of medivh cant)
    -immortal natherazim gates from Nether Rift side if legion opens them, but i think that there is also bug becouse if u open it with portal opener, portal is destroyable
    -astaral walk change
    -OJ/DMC rework, thanks TheKaldorei, but it should be improved by new events becouse if OJ loses outland he has to leave the game
    -pathing in outland rework
    -dire wolf changes
    -Horde heroes from warsong hold are bound to warsong hold + karagath
    -industrail horde sounds great if u are looking on heroes right now (garosh ultiamte jump buff) but i dont like units of them
    -magic dmg buffs dalaran summons
    -fallen heroes and rising demis by grey/LK
    -archers of bloodelves
    -event's with horde alliances - liandrin+archers for horde, forasken archers for horde in forsaken alliance but there is bug , they dont benefit from damage upgrade
    -15s timer for grouping your units before game starts
    -choke points like dalaran rework
    -troll shards and ice trolls rework
    -horseman knight (and similiar units) ability to move through other units
    -actually i admit that solo path for forsaken and OJ is really really good but with bugs

    good but bad things(not planned good enough):
    -sylvanas empower rework - i like the idea of 10lvl empower without losing allies But for fucking god, who had an idea for this valkyrs weird mechanic? It gives nothing to game. Sylvana never will die 8 times in a single game (dont forget about respawn time). Imo its just uselss and worthless. One of the most anoying hero in game gets mechanic for perma death while she has windwalk, blink , heal from ulti , heal from farnel, and anti magic shield.
    -damage/armor changes in legion - some of them are good some are bad
    -i know dat SvnmS changed Adal's movement speed to let him blink but 100ms is too much xddd
    -dark iron changes. Well i didint like the idea of solo path ragnaros but it suprised me positivly. It has weird mechanic right now becouse old DI could go kill magni at his lvl 12, consume shard of thauresian, research event from blacksmith and he had 15 lvl in adition 2nd thaureasian( i dont remember the name) started at lvl 14 in that reason. For now when u do the same thing , your thauresian sorcerer has 13 lvl, u research event and u get executus at lvl 13 then u get lvl on sorcerer , and then u summon 2nd thauresian and u have to exp your excecutus by 2 lvls. It's a little weird becouse u have much more afford to get experience and ragnaros event is much much slower.

    Imo bad things(i dont think dat everyone will aggre with me):
    -capturable troll buildings - mby lets make capturable FT becouse bolvar should sit on it
    -LB and purple's tanks are useless
    -i dont like the idea how worgens works like now - spam soldiers and cast invisibility on them is the only way to fight right now
    -troll brawlers are fucking op, melle ups with ranged damage with 40%evasion for ranged and spell resistance??? How it even passed Q&A
    -worker limitation destroyed ballance a little bit for factions that bases on lumber - forsaken,gilneas, Outland factions and especially dwarves that has to spare 30 workers between mines and wood
    -Thandol Span pillars removed, then brought back, but SvnmS forgot about event of destroying bridge, so bridge is still... undestroyable. I relly dont know how he managed that. Even bridge repair event is still in game. I just dont know how he thinks. EPIC FAIL
    -Lordaeron palace is fucking stronger choke point right now than "old" Dalaran - OP towers
    -giving siege+normal damage to wolf raiders , and even worse industrail horde raiders has only siege damage. Another change made and forgot about related things...
    -dalaran buff's when somebody from alliance leaves it, I said it will have 99999 bugs and weird things and u didint listen to me. Right now you have bug with aegwynn, galen doesnt stack with any heroe from purple, dragon + gryphons army
    -trying to make dalaran solo path. How the hell u want to make caster faction without ranged piercing dmg and ranged siege dmg thats vurnerable to dispel make a solo path faction... Just how ( yes i know dat purple has militia archers with frost arrows dat are actually good but if u compare militias to other archers, they are average)
    -buff of Galen. From OP hero u made him Stronger than LK, and LK at current state is a joke
    - too many removed events/paths - zeala path, risen, san lyn, revive of galen by forsaken and more, many more
    -endless demonic runes of KJ
    -spawning free doom guards near draneor rift.... good why orange/legion has free access to strong unit that is better than eg. bear warrior that costs 37g. Just why...
    - global range infernals of KJ
    -more global range Aegwynn's portal
    -more than more global range abilities like stationary ragnaros
    - more global range abilities please, like THC global isnt enough. It will balance LTA for sure
    - new content has a lot of bugs
    -bugs bugs and once more bugs - eg. legion can summon portal near andorhall
    -UNIT LAG due to siege & colision size/movment speed changes

    But why bad things occured?:
    -i could say , too big focus on solo path's
    -changes werent planned good enough - changing something and forgeting about related events/units/abilities - eg. abilities of moved oshugun doesnt affect whole outland

    What i liked from previous editors:
    -good relation betwen them and forum users
    -good qualitifactions - knowledge about wc3 editor

    What i dislike:
    -SvnmS confidence. There was some SvnmS ideas that i dissagreed and were cool but there were a lot of that was fucking dumb (control point hp regeneration) dat was advised against but he did that. Imo that change was the biggset failure of SvnmS. Atleast he repaired it a little bit.
    -and i could say Yousef arrogance. At start of June he posted about relasing new version of LTA in upcoming 2 weeks. After that he didint post any single thing for 6 weeks... I dont understand how people in these times cant use their smartphone and LTE or even free Wi Fi arround city (pizza's pub etc) to connect to internet for 1 minute and post 1 thing like - sorry guys i have no time, new version of lta will be postponded.
    -invisible changes, didint mentioned in patch notes - this is the thing i hate the most
    -not sure if they played LTA once per month. I could say they didint understand what's the state of balance in LTA. - i ve never seen SvnmS in LTA game. Mostly Yousef and sometimes TheKaldorei. So SvnmS had more experience in game and had better knowledge about state of LTA's balance ( im not talking about myself but about forum)

    -fix tooltips of abilities, starting mesages etc. - i can test things in game and point some of them (atleast that i can do)
    -incrase 15s timer at start of game (this after voting for game mod) to 30s
    -do something with towering sunwell by blood elves. Its hilarious
    -remove sunwell absorption event, PLEASE just please. It could also fix sunwell towering
    -scourge/cult really really needs an update (solomon already posted nice things on forum)
    -repair pathing in azjol nerub - i dont know how many times i got cancer from it
    -revamps of some heroes - belagun, maiev, rehgar could get better ultimate and more
    -some heroes that should be tanky has a lot of hp but has bad armor - eg. LK
    -making every path unique ( i know its hard and challanging)
    -some bases on map are super hard to conquer while they are useless for their faction (eg. Tyrs Hand - gives nothing for argent crusade) while some of them are easy to deal with and has some important mechanic for their faction eg. Aerie Peak,

    -i like the ideas of Kaldorei:
    +move kultiras into baradin hold for future content/events/paths
    +alex stars with ashbringer
    +and more from thread of ideas for LTA (some are linked below)
    -give dwarves posibility to craft all 3 artifacts in IF for 300, 500 and 1k gold, i dont like RNG mechanic or balance atleast balance them, Warhammer is lowest one while shield is strongest

    So to sum up:
    Normally I prefer 1.51 but i would miss a lot of changes from 1.54, mostly retterains

    -Is Kaldorei still working on LTA?

    Solomon ideas:
    and there was one about cult, couldnt find but they were more instresting than these

    Kaldorei ideas:

    Most of things that i mentioned here are about factions that i play, so keep that in mind. They are:
    dwarves, purple, horde ,forsaken, scourge
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    Limiting workers was a good thing. Now just limit Shredders? :]
  9. ShadowBro


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    they are limited? and nerfed
  10. Arreone


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    oh boi here we go again
    1st thing: noobs from uos arent "majority of players" and them being unable to learn few changes doesnt mean svmns changes were bad :D
    *troll brawlers are fine with their 40% ranged dodge and magic resistance its ranged attack (170) that makes them op becouse 4 brawlers can fight in choke in line at spot that would fit 1 footmen (smoulderthorn brawlers fight in melle and they are balanced compared to normal or ice ones even while having same stats except range)
    *gilneas has really high dps footmen worgen form yet it comes at price of being unarmored (armour type) they are strong but squishy and thats the reason for using invi on druids and that i adore
    *there are 3 yoggsaron type bastards now in game that need to be changed and their area restricted global infernals on summoned kj volcanos on stationary form ragg and yogg himself
    *demonic runes spawning doomguards would be fine if they would be on timer shorter then cooldown (now they are on unlimited time :D ) for example lasts for 20 sec cooldown is 30 sec
    *troll demi with charge is busted becouse he is not using mana to activate it and it has short cooldown (gorn speed buff troll demi in zul aman)
    *in my opinion dwarf could get some kind of dispel for winning south (Kegan Firebeard)
    *oh boi it was possible to make velen not heal enemies and make adal item usable to him what happened tis was miracle or something?
    *as much as space flying triangle should be fying balance wise he should be ground hero or somewhat nerfed (and i say it with great pain)

    Alexandros event coould be changed and heres idea -he starts with ashbringer, ashbringer gives stats and splash dmg instead on gay hit and run aoe, when alexandros dies cult gets him IMIDIETLY after his death (same changes required for undead alex ash) lb can go argent after 15-20 minutes withouth going scarlet keeping only alexandros from silverhand heroes (isilien is corrupt saidan is dead and Othmar is an asshole(double speed aura on argent really)) Veeresa stacks with Othmar, Alex with Velen, Saidan with Tirion (oh boi leveling saidan is not a waste of xp!) Galen still stacks with Tirion and with Saidan via Tirion-Saidan bond Major change to Scarlet path: it is no longer reward its punishment as it should be (no longer suiciding Alex to get better units) and Renault stacks with Tirion while velen still gets alexandros level
    Renault does not start with ashbringer to get it back you need to kill Alex and then he can have it (like Tirion event) (but ashbringer rejected him in lore sooo... eh just fhack off Renault).
    When in argent dawn with Alex if he dies he is ressurected by grey and then you have to kill him to give Tirion ashbringer and you dont leave alliance anymore, simple as that.
    -those are hard changes and i imagine you could need Marsh help with them (it works in ltf tho) but there is a lot of reason behind them:
    *no longer dumb killing off Alex to get better position early (being awarded for loosing hero greaat)
    *benefit for cult-they will get alexandros every game even if asshole lb leaves at start
    *having seperate heroes stacking will delay lb God tier power leveling wise and having direct way from silverhand to argent will keep it not so far behind
    *it will counter gay strategies invented by someone called Arreone with rushing scarlet like:
    suiciding tyrs hand, spawning Renault on Tol barad, power creeping on northrend, asking purp for water elementals to get free exp from them!, getting adal minute 20-25 and wrecking whole game with him becouse its too early for hero this strong.
    Lore wise it doesnt make sence that Alexandros had to die to make Argent dawn possible it could still happen with him being alive!

    And remember we all are really happy that you decided to come back (not becouse Svnms team was bad they were actually really good as map makers go) and on behalf of all ungratefull scrubs out there (including past me) i say sorry for being so ungratfull, its good to have you back and keep up marvelous work. Best of luck! :D
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2018