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LTF Balance and the fix! (long promised thread)

Discussion in 'Lordaeron: The Foremath' started by Spectator, Jul 21, 2017.

  1. Spectator

    Spectator The Changer of Ways... Donator

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    Hello All and this the read I have promised for so long.

    Its into 6 sections:

    1. Current situation and balance (video, review section,)
    2. Movement of Rangers to south during plague (Text, Suggestion section)
    3. Movement of Teal North during plague + stratholme (Text, Suggestion section)
    4. Civil War (Text, Suggestion section)
    5. Scholomance and Cult (Text, Suggestion section)
    6. Current instructions and objectives (Text, Review/Suggestion section)

    1. Current situation and balance (video, review section,)

    Transcript (don't have to read this if you watched video)

    Alright Now this video is gonna be on what usually happens in most LTF games! So after playing around at least 400 LTF games I have realised there is a common scenario that happens in most games. It has been been changed a bit from patch to patch but its exact scenario in each game of LTF.

    So here is how it goes, usually there are different strategies that alliance players execute in the early game.

    First one is the black rock rush which does not happen often and requires experienced and coordinated players to happen properly. In this strategy Dwarves gathers his troops quickly with gryphons quickly and prepares to attack Blackrock! Meanwhile Dalaran then quickly Teleports on him after clearing Gilneas and maybe some creeps. The goal is to quickly attack blackrock before outland has fully recovered from fight with Exodar.

    On the other side highborne TPs to hold brown early and waits for Dark Green and Rangers to aid him attack dragonmaw port. Then should plague happen Dalaran and highborne Teleport back to stop it. This method is properly the most effective one but it’s rarely executed properly as one bad ruins the whole plan while the strategy requires amazing communication so only really works in arranged and clan games.

    Now there is the second alliance strategy which happens in most games. It does not require that much coordination and is not as risky. It involves getting all alliance members down south to attack Dragonmaw port early. Usually DG decides to never come south and just creep while preparing for plague but sometimes DG also comes down.

    In this strategy usually Alliance manages to kill port but at great losses due and its usually done by 10-15mins where plague is ready. Then usually entire alliance backs to Lordaeron to defend plague while leaving dwarves to defend south against a fully health Orange, show council and Teal.

    And then there is the final strategy where alliance players are kinda nooby and don’t go south early and instead a few go Northend while some go Tol barad while some just sit in Lordaeron and creep. In this case usually dwarves and 1 or 2 alliance member south start turtling early and prepare. This an amazingly trash thing do because u are not taking advantage of evil’s weak early game where they don’t have Magi, Gruul, Dragons, Trolls and other powerful stuff.

    Now that I explained what usually happens early in game in south lets talk about the plague phase. Usually when most alliance players hear the plague sound its like the Nuclear bomb Siren to them. They all just lose control and go back North as soon as they can to rekt the poor 2 men undead team and they keep forgetting the fact that there are 2 undead members while there are 4 legion members.

    Part 2: (show footage of bunkered palace and bases)

    So here is how the plague fight usually goes. Alliance must carefully and strategically place their defences across Lordaeron as Undead have a lot of important bases they can choose to attack! Nah just kidding! Only base that Matters is Lordaeron palace so alliance always fills it with Cannons and generators.

    Yes there tons of bases in Lordaeron but none of them are worth defending. There is stratholme which is useless and its easy quite easy to take by teal so alliance usually leaves teal alone to get it. Then there is androhal which is similar to stratholme. Mardenholde keep is just a CP. Then there is Tyrs tho which is hard to take but has no value to alliance or LB so its fine to let them take it tho it gives Achreus which is not bad. However If I am experienced Dalaran or any other alliance faction. I am not dumb enough to back to defend any of those bases where I can help dwarves clear entire south and help him build up The Nethergarde keep in this area. Not really nethergarde keep but I like to call it, since its an amazing defending spot as u can put ur mortars and siege in a great position and block off entire outland. You see cause once entire south is secured alliance can then 4 men or even 5 men Undead without worrying about south steamrolling so Its worth as hell. You might get the argument yea u lose cps to undead this way tho which does not matter since the CPs you get in south offsets it. The only base that Undead can consider attacking and is worth a damn to the alliance is Windrunner spire but alliance will have easy time killing undead there since there is no unholy ground or cauldrons while alliance has tons of defences there. So overall Palace is always the only proper option for undead to attack. (need to find game)

    Now that I explained why its always palace that undead attack lets explain what happens during plague. While Undead is stuck in a 2 versues 5 vs alliance Legion team gets a free south 4v1 with only dwarves to defend it and those dwarves usually get crushed seconds but sometimes they just out right abandon south and go wildhammer path. So basically, Legion team gets entire south for free during plague while Undead is contesting a 2 versus 5 for a small area. (Use current one)

    So I counted how much gold per turn each area has. Now if u pause and look at the map here you ll see how much gold south is worth in comparison to other areas! 325g per turn is way too much to be given for free to legion. Meanwhile Scourge is contesting 5 people for pennies in plague lands! (build picture)

    Alright Finally After Scourge attacks on palace and holds a long fight with alliance there despite being outnumbered they will eventually Get pushed out of lordaeron cause its a 2versus5 specially as Light blue becomes stronger as time passes. Then now u get the final battle which will decide the whole game! You got legion orcs from south who will probably have undead joining them and grouped as 5-6 meanwhile then Entire alliance groups as 6 and then u get a massive 6v6 usually somewhere close to Stormgarde. This battle is usually a clusterfk graphically and mechanically! And I know from the votes majority did not like LTF only as a 6 versus 6 like this. Anyway in this battle it sorta depends on skill of alliance and evil players amd who wins the its different from patch to patch like in 0.07 it was evil win while in 0.14 its alliance I think in 0.19 its evil but some say alliance. Overall it doesn’t fking matter. The game is over after this battle! If evil wins its instant legion win since Undead are too crippled from being 2v5 while Legion are way too fed for getting free south during plague! And if alliance wins then its over 6v6 alliance win. (use the cluster fk one)

    The point is LTF has been always either been alliance 6v6 win or Legion win and games usually decided quite early like 20-30 mins in.

    However, I gotta say in few cases where Undead players are really skilled and alliance is not that decent so sometimes they manage to kill palace tho it will take a long time. However usually by the time Undead manages to kill palace Legion and orcs have already killed Dalaran or are in middle of doing so. This is really imbalanced because the most important factor of having advantage in civil war depends who is gonna win the following race:

    Are Undead going to get to take over sunwell faster than legion takes over Dalaran?

    Or Are Legion and orcs going take over Dalaran faster than Undead gets to Sunwell?

    This is a race which the undead are heavily disadvantaged. In my opinion, they should not be disadvantaged in this race but actually should be advantaged instead since Legion is the one with numbers advantage and Super strong late game with all the God tiers! You can’t give a team both the powerful late-game and also the powerful early game while undead gets the both the bad positioning while also getting the weaker late game! But yea usually in games where blue and cult finally manage to Kill Lordaeron palace and are moving towards Quel’thalas its always too late as legion with book is already at sunwell and is preparing attack the Frozen throne after absorption! Usually you know how it ends up being…

    Now obviously don’t get me wrong tho What I described is not every game. In games where there is massive imbalance between player’s experience level or games where there are pre-planned betrayals by Clan mates or polskis you can get every scenario with any team winning! Specially If there are trolls or people who betray for yolo in the game. Hell I even won a game solo as Scarlet Crusade, that does not mean Scarlet Crusade team is OP! But overall if everyone is close to same experience level and there are no pre-planned betrayals or afks and trolls This is pretty much every scenario. Either Legion or alliance. Anyways my next two Discussions will focus on two ideas specific to fix this problem!

    Also, Really sorry I was originally gonna video the 5other topics that are left but I only managed to the current situation ones. I don’t think the rest really need a video and it would take a long time for me to video them specially as I am already quite late in putting out this thread. Overall hope you grasped what usually happens in most LTF games and why? The rest of this thread is gonna be on suggestions to fix the current problems. The most important ones are movment of rangers to south and movement of Teal to North so please consider them and think of suggestions to make it viable! Thing is there is no way LTF can be patched without having a HUGE IMBALANCE as long as its 2 Undead players vs 5 Alliance players in Lordaeron while its 4 Legion players vs 1 Alliance player in south!

    2. Movement of Rangers to south during plague (Text, Suggestion section)

    Ok This thread is about the project of repositioning rangers south! Keep in mind that this an idea and I have not completed making full suggestions on this so whoever takes this project and makes a thread on it can do it.

    So here is how the reposition works:

    Rangers now get an important base in south! Possibly a replacement to where Dun Algaz and the cannon is right now. This new base will replace the Farstrider lodge next to Kargath!

    Rangers objective is now to attack South early and defend this Southern base 2v3 with dwarves against the Orcs During plague!

    The base can now have something important binded to it Like

    1. Verressa + balistas and then Spire gets elites bounded to Spire

    2. Or Verressa + a new or existing unit or ability of Rangers

    3. Or something else, what u bind to that base is debatable

    Also now the Trees Connecting North of Stratholme to Windrunner spire is now replaced with water! So now only way to Quel’thalas is either with ships or TP! Two reasons for this:

    1. Ensuring Rangers won’t abandon dwarves and their southern base too early to save spire

    2. Teal will probably get a base there during plague (explained in teal moved north vid)

    Now What are the reasons for this repositioning?? Tons here are some:

    1. To ensure Rangers are no longer a massive pain to UD during plague fight! Making their 2v5 to 2v4 and giving them slightly higher chance

    2. To ensure Orcs steamroll is countered a bit more! As explained south is richest area being worth 325g per turn and all Orcs have to do get it is kill dwarves 3v1 after plague! With rangers its ensured their job is not that easy. Still Orcs will get to control most of southern lands but won’t dominate it in 2-3 mins

    3. Slyvannas helping Arthas to fight Kel during plague never made any lore sense anyways. This change will make game much more interesting imo.

    4. It allows you to nerf dwarves a bit! Dwarves have been super buffed to help them being outnumbered! Facing a good dwarves player with annoying things like Balance breaker, The cannon and Ironforge gates is a nightmare and total pain for anyone. Also its kinda unfair where a faction like dwarves in alliance gets OP stuff cause he is outnumbered while factions like highborne and silverhand (without argent) get to be quite weak cause they are fighting a fight where they have numbers advantage!

    Now finally what are the logical reasons for rangers to stay south?

    Well there already some currently! The good rangers I know even now stay south instead of going plague since they understand orcs and legion is the bigger threat.

    1. Rangers are much more effective against Orcs than UD! Unlike UD Orcs have less summons, less units but fatter ones. Makes them perfect for rangers specially as they also have some good front line hero’s for aiming! While Cult just mass summons on u and u can’t do much against him as rangers.

    2. Its more beneficial even in the long run if you do as much damage to the orcs! Lets say Should you do well in south and do nice damage to the orcs but unfortunately Lordaeron fell and Tyrs fell after it cause ur highborne,dalaran,dg and LB allies got outplayed by UD players. Its still ok for you to go defend Quel’thalas against UD and get some XP. Should the worst scenario happen u become forsaken its still quite good for you cause u can now win as Forsaken in civil war since UD team has good advantage due to the nice damage u did to the orcs in south!

    3. More CPs in south for u take for more gold while Lordaeron is quite crowded with ur allies.

    Now whoever who is interested in this project should add more reasons for rangers! The addition of the important base in south is already one.

    Still tho Spire is rangers more important base so might wanna give them some sort of way (like a one time TP to quel?) to go back to Quel’thalas should it become endangered!

    3. Movement of Teal North during plague + Stratholme (Text, Suggestion section)

    Ok this one is about the two changes that u guys have suggested before. Making teal be focused north while adding event regarding Arthas and Strathholme. The first part of this project is about stratholme and Arthas while second part is about moving teal North during plague. I know Koganesga will be interested in this one (it was his idea kinda anyway xd)

    So first of all lets talk about Strathholme! The first thing that needs to happen in my opinion is the damn gates described as pure cancer by zoom need to be nerfed heavily! Two 12000hp gates is BS. Secondly imo stratholme building needs a buff in hp to reduce aim. Might want to also move stratholme building to left or right to allow for better battles in the city.

    The goal now is to make Stratholme a Siegeable city rather something teal Astral insides and aims!

    Also might wanna alter the zombie spawns event by Malganis a bit depending on if its gonna be OP or underpowered. Probably might wanna put a delay 30sec to 60sec event and increase HP of stratholme by a lot plus addition of some Guard towers to remove chance of Astral and aiming. This is to ensure DG gets there in time and Teal now has to siege the city rather than just aim.

    Now here is the main change. Arthas is now bound to Stratholme and becomes Unrevivble hero after it! Should he die he will go to Blue and DG loses him forever! A new Unrevivble hero will now be given to DG to replace Arthas.

    Now someone suggested now DG can have 5 minutes if he wants he can become Scourge and take control of Arthas or he goes New Lordaeron! That sounds like a good idea to me. Now this part is debatable tho there many ways u can work it out but the fact that Arthas should be bound to stratholme and therefore cannot be denied form blue is inventible imo and u all agreed even Acadian I believe.

    Ok now lets talk about second part which is having Teal to be focused on Lordaeron during plague time! This one however won’t be as simple as moving rangers south during plague.

    How this one will work?

    The way it does is now that Teal gets a base with a massive Undead Army and maybe a Cauldron North of Stratholme when plague is activated! He can then use this Army to Attack Stratholme from Northen Side!

    His starting army will massive but he has to be careful as he does not have the gold to create more army usually, at least usually teal does not have as much as alliance.

    There is also the option of making Undead units cheaper for Teal during plague for a period of time so Teal can decide to use those instead of expensive demonic ones?

    Ok Why should Teal be moved North during plague fight?

    1. To help the UD with pressure as they are in a 2v4 situation (assuming rangers stay south) and to make the 2v4 a 3v4 which is a bit more balanced.

    2. To take pressure of south and make the 4v2 in South a 3v2 assuming rangers are already south, make south fight less one sided.

    3. Makes a lot more lore sense and the game becomes more interesting.

    4. Allows for more options for evil to attack during plague as now alliance has to worry about defending Stratholme too and can’t just bunker palace while rest push south!

    Ok now what is the logical reason for Teal to attack alliance with plague grouped UD instead of just helping south? After all they are gonna civil war on him? This is one is a bit harder than rangers but its possible.

    1. Watch this video by Nathrezim first! ()

    OK by that The Mephistroth meant it Undead won’t matter in the long run since we got the OP late game! So the goal of the Legion is really to break the alliance and ensure they don’t win the 6v6 since that is the biggest concern. Once they are summoned specially with Nefarian and Deathwing. It really does not matter who stands in their way.

    2. By pressuring Lordaeron and ensuring its destruction quel’thalas will fall endanger so Rangers have to back off from south which makes things easier for Orcs!

    Ok now here are some Reasons u need add with suggestions:

    There could be adding bonus achievement for killing Strahtolme or maybe making some punishment for failing to protect ur base in Lordaeron.

    Just a side not tho. If we are planning to make Teal useful in plaguefight The spell banish on Trisifal councillors needs to change! Pretty much every fuckign hates that spell since its cancer. It forces teal to never engage in fight at all even if he has bigger army since dalaran will banish his heros so no XP. So teal is forced to always be stayed grouped with Shadow council so he can use the Teron gate to comeback if he is banished.

    Now I understand this spell is designed to let Dalaran chase Teal when he is CP snipeing or killing runestones. So I suggest a spell which can do that better without making teal totally useless in battles.

    The banish ability is now replaced with the actuall spell Banish (like agewyns banish) where it makes the demons turn Ethereal! It also has a really effective slow on it. So now Dalaran can catch Dreadlords and slow them by turning them Ethereal while shredding them with magic damage but cannot deny Teal XP in a battle anymore like the current spell does.

    Bonus: @Kogansega had a really nice idea after the stratholme event where it would make Arthas venture Northend. This was done as a follow to up stratholme changes. A bit more complicated by I reckon if he makes it simpler its possible.

    4. Civil War (Text, Suggestion/review section)

    Onyx was interested in this one.

    Ok this one is about civil War. I remember Marsh said something like that she wants evil to have like 60% power level while alliance is like 40% so this way evil wins more games which leads to civil war and games where evil wins the 6v6 are a lot more interesting. I can’t agree more and I believe right now that is the case.

    However I think its unfair that evil gets to be stronger than alliance before civil war. I think it should be at least 50% for evil 50% for alliance before civil war. While after civil war Evil becomes stronger than alliance!

    So what mean right is I think civil war should be used as a Strategic tool by evil in order for them to ensure fall of the alliance. So currently civil war is only something that evil uses where alliance is totally crushed and they are begging evil in chat to civil war or they gonna RQ.

    I think that should be the case, I think evil should civil war first if they want to secure victory against alliance. This can be done by ensuring civil war unlocks more power as currently getting Sapphiron is not worth losing 4 allies.. nor is Kazzak and BS worth losing 2!

    You see UD and Orcs don’t really need to be allied in order to win against alliance since they are attacking from totally opposite directions. Therefore they are both gonna be attacking alliance without attacking each other.

    UD usually kills its way from Palace to Sunwell While Orcs kill their way from Ironforge to Dalaran. It’s a race between them.

    In my opinion civil war should happen quite early into the game where alliance is not totally destroyed and out of game, this way the game is a lot more interesting. For example It should be encouraged for UD to civil war after they have taken palace and maybe Arthas while meanwhile for Orcs if they have taken Dun algaz and maybe Ironforge and are marching North. This way alliance does not suddenly gets shattered to pieces and they get a bit of hope.

    Also I think they way it should work is the person who engages civil first gets some offensive assets (debatable what they might be) as they are probably in a good position and are ready to push harder so they civil wared. Meanwhile they person who doesn’t engage it gets some defensive positions as they might have been doing well as the other side so the defensive assets help them against getting 6 men on suddenly.

    5. Scholomance and Cult (Text, Suggestion section)

    Ok this one is probably the most Controversial one and kinda confusing one since I have no clear suggestions how this might work.

    This one is about two parts. First making Cult defend scholo. Second making plague more convenient.

    The goal is to get a change where Cult now gets to defend scholo Early and holds DG away from rushing south early! Main reason for it is that its pretty hard to balance a 6v6 where 2 members of evil are AFK farm for first 10 to 15 minutes!

    Right now we all know Scholo and Alterec are useless bases which OJ and cult abandon on spot.

    I was hoping if we could make it that Cult now stays and defends scholo for first few minutes kinda like LB does in outland. However obviously this gonna be quite hard because Scholo we ll get 6 men at the start should cult decide to defend it.

    Maybe you make scholo and an instance and make it that any unit other than DGs who enters the instance gets destroyed or turned into zombie only first 10 minutes so this way other factions won’t try to gank up and cult and will go South instead so only dg gets to attack scholo?? Idk its pretty stupid.

    This why I am hoping u guys can come up with a suggestion regarding defence of scholo! Here is what it should provide:

    Occupy DG away from rushing south early

    Should not encourage Other factions except DG to attack scholo instead of going south! (LB paladins should be fine)

    Scholo must become easy to take after 10 min to game and give cult bonus for holding

    Should cult fail to hold DG should get a bonus. (Idk maybe could make it that DG and Kill Kel then make ghost kel stronger? Just a lore thought xd

    Now here is the second part which is easier. Its to make plague simpler for Cult.

    Right now spawn of random minions all around lordaeron is kinda useless and most of them will get separated and die on spot.

    I was hoping u could make it that each cauldron spawns less and weaker stuff while zombies while then Cult can choose A cauldron to spawn his main army from. Everyone will get notification which cauldron was chosen. This to make plague useful for cult than random feed while also allowing cult to be useful by having an army during plague. As unlike blue cult really does not get the time and gold to prepare fully army before plague, especially if scholo event gets added!

    6. Current instructions and objectives (Text, Review/Suggestion section)

    Ok this one is pretty straight forward one.

    First lets talk about how does skill level work in LTF. The both micro and macro are quite easy to learn for new players which is good. Imo LTF is probably the easiest popular macro map in WC3 only in micro and macro. However when it comes Knowledge and strategy It is the Hardest by far to Learn! Is incredibly harsh on New players and makes LTF knowdlge wise something that is Pretty damn hard to learn and ok to master.

    Here let me give u an example! Lets say you are a great LTA and Az wars player and now u have started your first ever LTF game as brown. Here is what the instructions tell you


    You will be like OK! Easy I can do this, U follow objective and u get absolutely rekt!

    However, its not just Browns or Cults case where instructions deceives you. In most cases like Highbornes the instructions does not tell u anything! It literally just tells to defend Quel’thalas plus some lore! This is however harmful since as higborne u need to quickly research ur teleport on Anesterian and go South or else Orcs are gonna be quite fed!

    This happens to a lot of factions in LTF where the instructions are wrong and game deceives you:

    e.g Dwarves are encouraged to turtle early instead of rush which is wrong

    e.g No clear objective for Rangers just like highborne (they need to go south asap)

    e.g Dalaran is not told he is meant to go fight orcs early!

    You the problem with LTF is it does not give u a main objective and early tactics at the start. In LTA for example as LB I am told to defend Tyrs until my allies arrived which is a nice valid strategy. Yes ofc I can abandon tyrs to go gilneas or South and that will work if I am pro, there are tons of strategies. But LTA provides a main strategy for new players who don’t know the game to follow and still do well. LTF does not provide any objectives or strategy so unless u played ur faction a couple of times and figured out what to do. You are screwed specially as the early game is really important in LTF.

    Also I was hoping that u could make a lot of Stuff more convenient like for example the early game Attempt for teal to kill Black temple! I think its quite dumb and all it does it makes new teal players confused AF as their main objective early is not given to me!

    This was a something that happened when Copied from LTA and that needs to change imo. Instead of teal being Forced to Astral into Black temple and kill it, he should start with it imo and then Orange should then get a Tip to take black temple (already says on magis research) for him to take Magi.

    Overall imo the instructions and objectives need to become clearer specially in early game while incontinent stuff need to be removed. However, I believe its also the players responsibility to help with it. After all


    Hope you grasped the Current state of LTFs balance and the reason for it! Please pay important attention to suggestions regarding movement of Rangers and Teal as they are the most important and only way of ensuring LTF is not massively imbalanced. Obliviously what I explained is comprehensive so you can’t discuss in one thread. If you are interested in any of the 5 suggestions I have given please replay and make a thread on it which I will help you with it. I know @Koganesaga would be interested in movement of teal to Lordaeron While @Onyx was interested in civil war.
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    Last edited: Jul 21, 2017
  2. TheKaldorei

    TheKaldorei ❄️ Holiday Hoe ❄️ Shaman Map Maker

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    This post will be edited later after reading this shit show of a post.
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  3. Onyx

    Onyx GrimmHeart Darksbane Shaman

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    Yea .... you didn't lie
    Let me some time to read this
    I'll edit my post afterwards
  4. Spectator

    Spectator The Changer of Ways... Donator

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    True but that long tho (still pales before @EmperorFawful 's Might!) , The transcript for the video is making it artificially long. All u really have to do is watch video which is the review. Then read points 2 to 6 which are the suggestions. Most of the suggestions are not really new or original ideas really, its just the ones everyone been point out to here and there so I decided to make a full recap of them in this thread.

    There is no need for a full on replay for parts 2-6. They are 4 different topics which will make it difficult for a entire discussion for one thread. Tell which point u were interested in. Just to know 2, 3 and maybe 4 are the important ones. 5 and 6 are not as important as those.
  5. Mangros

    Mangros Curufinwe

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    Well done Iliya you have proven me that you really like ltf.

    (Didnt really bother the read all that stuff)
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  6. muhlta


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    2, no objections
    3, Arthas situation been expanded upon in numerous threads already, not much to add in there.
    Teal in Strath wont work without serious rewards, if Rangers are to be moved south. Teal will rather stay south as he always did to ensure stomp as it was until now.
    Agree with Tirisfal agent changes.
    4, hard to predict how Civil War changes with rangers south. Nowdays, its always Legion which starts Civil War. 4 ppl in Legion team mean twice the rewards for starting it than with 2 players+more CPs. Legion doesn't really need Undead, expect for Plague distraction.(Which is kinda stupid, Legion created Undead to destroy Lordaeron, but actually Legion is Undead's bitch in LTF, because they want Undead to plague and drop pressure from South) In addition, the longer the game goes, the more likely it is that Scourge team gets more members. So it is no brainer to civil war instantly as Legion. If Mardum was easier to attack as undead, things would be different. Teal's base is too fucking safe. Fel Keepers everywhere and everything which I have expanded upon already in different threads. Not to mention, Kazzak is probably in top 3 heroes of the game and the benefits brown gets. Plus Civil War makes no sense to be triggered by Legion anyway. It is Scourge betraying Legion, never the other way around. IMO, it should be balanced around the fact that only Undead can trigger Civil War.
    5, would like Scholo to be kind of Outland Muru situation.
    6, agree.
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  7. Awesomeguy

    Awesomeguy Im Awesome Brigand

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    I have only watched the video atm, I will read the rest later.
    6:00 - You finall get it! 6:03 *facepalm*
    You can attack Tyrs, and it does matter for lb, abilities for heroes and demis and unreviveable tirion. and Gray can get his base and strong units after it! it is also a strong position and a good base.
    Or attack Windrunner spire, you can just rush it fast and use naval support and destroy it before alliance tps. It isnt that important base, but its the key for start attacking quelthalas.
    You can even try destroy dalaran or Aerie peak, anything but Lordaeron.
    Lordaeron Palance is important only for dg, it doesnt have a good position, and will give only falric and a base for undead. The only thing that worth the trouble is the Crown, but its droppable and better not have it rather than your enemies to have it.

    It seems you havnt played Undead for a while, or didnt play with decent ones. Because in the latest patchs it became a lot easier to win in Lordaeron.
    Only noobs attack Lordaeron Palance, why would you even try to attack a fortified city with towers and gate that is guarded by 1-3 players. Last time i tried to take it, it took me 20 minutes to take it, totally not worth it.
    That Richard guy in your replay did plague at 15 atleast, no idea how he was expecting to take Lordaeron at that time.

    I just dont understand why you always say Lordaeron Palace is the only base matters.

    I will replay about the rest of the thread later.
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  8. Onyx

    Onyx GrimmHeart Darksbane Shaman

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    Alright, so to be honest I have not much to say, but I'll talk about 2 things :
    About Gray :
    I was thinking about something else than what you said
    The fact that Scholomance itself is destroyed before the plague is not lore accurate
    So it might not forcefully help to slow down the Alliance south rush, but it might help the Undeads to prepare for Plague
    What about Scholomance spawning at the same time as Plague ?
    Kel would start in NR with 2 new items, and Noth would spawn with Scholomance while Plague is being activated
    The first item would be a one used staff of teleportation (Castable on buildings only) and the second would be a wand of Dark Summoning (bringing a 100 units to the caster)
    This way the gray will have 2 possibilities of gameplay, either doomdrop with Naxx, either tp on a building like on Scholomance and join up with Noth, either tp to a Plague Cauldron and instantly strike from a point he wants
    During the casting of the staff, Kel would obviously be invulnerable but will have the choice on where he wants to tp (Something like 5 sec casting time or more dunno)
    The Wand, on the other hand, will have instant casting, bringing an army where there used to not have anything in less than a second
    => To sum up, the Alliance south rush will be stronger but after plague there will be a full base spawning in the middle of their lands
    Grey will have more time to prepare and plague happening at 10mins will be seen more often with more possibilities of Doomdrop

    About the Evil Vs Good (before or after civil war)
    There's something you didn't speak about
    Besides Civil war, as evil, if you want to be stronger you have to earn it, unlike most of the Alliance
    What am I speaking about ? Kill Sylvanas to gain an ally, kill Anasterian to force Blood Elves and Gain Valanaar, Get Sunwell to force Wretched
    Destroy Capital Palace to get Crown, destroy Tyrs' Hand to get Acherus
    I must admit it's more the case of Undeads than Legion Minions, not really the case for Brown/Green/Oj/Teal
    Still, Alliance doesn't need anything to be stronger, just time to get their path (LB/GREEN/YELLOW x2)
    Not really the case for Dalaran I'd say, nor DG, Dalaran becoming stronger whil his allies are leaving him

    Anyway, I just wanted to say that I think it's one of the reasons why LTF is considered as imbalanced and clearly is

    About the Civil War, just a quick word :
    Tbh, Kazzak is not really the reason why I go Civil War .... In my mind he is not that good
    The Levels are nice of course
    But the Fel Reavers ..... damn fucing damn, those 8 boyz could destroy Dalaran by themselves
    (Those are very efficient to aim down the crystals, or even the gens)

    Edit : I still didn't read the whole thread, gimme some time kek
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    Last edited: Jul 21, 2017
  9. Spectator

    Spectator The Changer of Ways... Donator

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    Cool, Glad u are interested in the scholomance Change part. Yes you suggestions sounds nice, tbh for the scholomance part I was hoping for some sort of change and did not really give much thought into it. We should make that a thread imo.

    That was kinda the whole point of me doing an entire thread like this. So if other people were interested in topics 2-5 they could give their suggestions and make a thread about it and i would help them with their thread. Would be impossible for to come with Good suggestions for all those topics that is why I mainly focused on 2 and 3 while for rest i just pointed out to the idea.

    and Fel revears are quite strong :-), A siege minion with fast speed and really high Tankiness LuL.
  10. Julian

    Julian just a simple Lich Shaman

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    god your thread was really long but worth to read. i would like the ranger changes making them focus more on south and teal focus north it would make 6v6 more intresting as you said and grey would become more fun in the begin because creeping jintha,gundrak and fjord and tping kel back to prepare for plague is for me not really funny letting me fight alliance at begin where i can weaken them a bit before plague would i like and plague fight in genaral easier i can agree you on all points and i would maybe tie some power from legion and scourge to civil like magtheridon to civil war because of him giving huge power for oj so civil would be important for orange. idk stuff from scourge to bind to civil because most of blue events are coming later.
    Anyway i like your thread Iliya you got the importants point in one thread and what you would like to add.
    I hope you can read it good because one of my longer messages
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