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LTF Patch Notes 0.30 - Closed

Discussion in 'Lordaeron: The Foremath' started by Marshmalo, Nov 7, 2018.

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  1. Yousef
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    Yousef Paladin of the Alliance Brigand Map Maker

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    Love every bit, that got me as excited as I was when reforged was announced, just one question, why the jump from .27 to .30?
  2. Onyx
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    Onyx GrimmHeart Darksbane Shaman

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    In case the hacker makes a 0.29 version
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  3. SUNSTRIDER
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    SUNSTRIDER

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    0.30 sounds cooler. :]
  4. Spectator
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    Spectator Adapt or Die Donator

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    I agree with the all points, unlike LTA Lich king, LTF one feels more like a caster to me with severe mana problems. I'd like a Lich king with immolation Auroa rekting in front line rather than sitting back and casting nova.

    About Gold reward between Dranie and Cult comparison. One important point is that fact that LB gets to keep his army after defending while Cult kinda gets fully wiped unless alliance is extreme noob. So i guess it's kinda fairer for LB to get less gold as he can keep the gold spent on defending outland back where as cult can't.
  5. ZeroFlotsie
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    ZeroFlotsie Lord of Hate Shaman Legendary Donator

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    Maybe just some armor for Lich King, I think like 5 armor will already go a long way. He has around 4.2k hp at lvl 15. So 300 hp really isnt all that much. For SH seems fine definitely. I'd just like to see SH players put some more units into actually holding. This will in return make dwarven players have more of a chance in south to survive slightly longer. I think for the DG/scourge thing the only events that he would need is Lich King and maybe sapphiron.
  6. Onyx
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    Onyx GrimmHeart Darksbane Shaman

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    Alright so, there are some really good changes, and some on which I'm like : "Wtf?"

    First of all I'll start with the Dwarven canon and Dragonmaw Catapult
    I don't see why you increase their hp, I've said it before, and I will repeat myself again
    While it seems to be a good mechanic, it's breaking the gam dynamism ....
    Whether the dwarf takes out the catapult in 30 secs or 10 secs, what does it change?
    I know you don't like to remove content, but this mechanic, is really not a needed one
    It slows down the whole south, and make both races super annoying to play

    And it's even more annoying for the rest of their teams, when ranger or dala comes down, and see cata is destroyed
    "What the fuck were you doing this whole time dwarf?"
    And it's the same on the other team "Hey look canon is not destroyed we can't siege alliance, dmc or teal go destroy canon"
    It's like suuuuuper ResidentSleeper mechanic, and prolly one of the think I hate the most about LTF

    Alright, I'll do one good thing / One bad thing
    DALARAN, we've discussed a bit on pm about it, and even though I'm quite sad like arlt that you can't betray anymore, it fixs a TON of stuff, and that's what I'm really glad about
    The fact that you couldn't get Rhonin as Worgen cuz it was bugged most of the time, the fact the dalaran shield wasn't working with rogues besides sometimes scarlet but was still working for alliance players
    As you said answering Arlt, Dalaran has a ton of content on itself, it goes from decently strong at the start till still quite strong even on the late game
    One thing on the other hand I'm not too happy about is E on Jaina, I think the way Wooden made it was really good
    With the previous spell you couldn't do shit, immobilise one unit ..... wooden made it like aoe entangle and it was good spell, would make people take it but still switching with dispell depending on the situation, now .... it will be really broken, it's basically shadow grip from Deathwhisper on Dalaran which doesn't need more hero aiming at all, like really at all, I swear to the old and the new gods, this is a bad thing
    The fact that you stun the unit will make blizzard even more efficiant on the aiming, target will stay where it is, no way to miss blizzard, nor fireball, nor slow, nothing
    Sure the spell is dispellable (hopefully it is) but if you stop looking one second at your hero, he's dead, dala doesn't give a fuck, he sees a hero, hero is dead simple

    By the way what is Arcane hail? Is it the spell on his item? Could use plz make it unable to target gates? It's really a pain to see kill a 12.500 hp gate, and then you see it recovered 2.500 hp .....

    And about Malygos he is quite ez to aim, if it's not the healing wave or arcane shield, I don't think he needs hp nerf really, execpt in dragon form

    Rangers !
    I always felt like Halduron should belong to the rangers, and finally there he is, our brave boy that makes HB overbroken has been moved HAIL
    Something I'm wondering, is, what spell did you give him on E? Cuz he currently has trueshot aura, but Sylvanas also has it so .... ?

    Archers are ..... limited? Limited? Limited?, wait, they are LIMITED WHAT THE HOLY MOLY CRAPPY GOD OF JESUS
    To make it clear of what's happenning in my mind, well I never felt archers needed MORE nerfs
    They have been heavily nerfed over the versions, it's prolly the only unit that had so many changes

    Now, I'm kinda mad about it because, when a race has no choice of units, and that you're limiting his choices even more, what are you trying to do?
    I'm having the same reaction as for the other guy that made 28, ONE DOES NOT SIMPLY LIMIT THE LIMIT
    I might be mean, but you could as well force betrayal on the player at 20-30 mins, that's the point where archers are starting to be useless
    Heroes get more lvls on their aoe, legion might already have fel reavers, blue can already have 6 on range ups, doom canons for Oj
    I could continue but I think it's enough, I really don't understand why you nerf the rangers archers ESPECIALLY WHEN HIGHBORNE ARCHERS ARE STRONGER
    You removed Halduron alright, the searing arrow remains, the HB archer deals minimum 20 dmg more than the RC archer per shot, cuz the searing arrow is 20 dmg

    People might not agree with me, and I don't care anyway, but I really felt that was broken about Rangers was his hero squad, his ability on high lvl to NEVER die
    You don't nerf ranger units, you nerf hero squad, decrease range on blink from vereesa, decrease ms on wind walk, increase mana cost for both spells, remove or nerf again the emerald stone, INCREASE COST OF SPELLSHIELD ITEM BY 100+G, or just remove it

    The spellshield item on dala is the strongest item you can buy on a faction shop, very low price for its use, the second item which comes after because of its heay price is the silence item, third is oj item who got nerfed and I think its fine now

    But if you decrease ranger's potencial of hit and run, snipe heroes you'll quickly realise that ranger doesn't need nerfs, especially not on the archers, his only valuable unit
    People think ranger is OP, super ez to play, just mass range and rush ups? Because of what, because thats all he got, if ranger doesn't get his range ups, he quickl becomes useless, like for real, less kills means less xp means useless for the rest of the game, forsaken arrives in a very precarous situation (yea dunno how tospell word) if he doesn't have the ups to sustain blue and do his job, nor the lvls he will get easily aimed and will work for the ennemy team rather than allies

    It's quite simple mechanic though, all the rest is fine
    I would still really like to have the adept upgrade of apocatheries available at start, oh and valkyrs hotkey are bugged, might not be the case for your version tho

    Giving DG full control over blue when this one leaves would be AWESOME, as well as control of Sapph and Anub
    And if I'm not wrong, Blue can't get LK for himself anymore, it's bugged, AND when dg gets LK if blue is not quick enough he doesn't get Lanathel either

    About cult, I don't really agree on openning a second path, I'd rather increase size of the one you got, and increase cult base, it fills really small compared to the 2 others, and let him choice on his base, if you balance deathknell with other bases they will prolly change their choice, main prob about base near tyrs is that elves can get there before you're ready ....

    A few notes besides this
    I don't remember all about the version you started with but :
    -Renegade equal : Forsaken free will, Illidari, Syndicate, Bdf Fel horde?
    So quick question here, can Illdari free up forsaken with eye in Dalaran?
    Does BDF has access to DW in your version?
    - Old gods => South + Nerubian + scarlet
    So, does scarlet has to go to IF ambassador to get ashbringer again?
    Double ashbringer bugg fixed?

    About Fel elves, can he summon legion, and archimonde for himself? If I'm not wrong, last time I saw it happen, archi was still teal, and summon at sunwell was instant .... Be sure to check triggers and fix it before release if possible

    About Risen : Did you change leopold? Did you fix Balnazzar lvl? He used to spawn lvl 3 on your version, does the race has dispell and access to wyrms?

    About blue : will he have the vrykul subpath and access to the 2 vrykul units wooden made and elite buff?
    Did you make the frost towers on throne with splash dmg to increase defense during nr rush?

    " Felsabers only summons 2 beasts instead of 3, but HP and attack has been increased to compensate. (Game performance related)."
    Thats a nice buff for SC tho, and I'm sorry I completly forgot to send you replay on which I wanted to show you WHY SC should be nerfed
    Trying to bring out some old issues, but don't remember everything sadly

    Did you fix the possibility of Naxx being unsummoned?
    Oh and talking about Naxx, I think you should give it the abilty to summon wyrms while moving, its super annoying to have to post it, summon, and then lift again
    It would also help to counter my naxx snipe at 4-6mins in Game LUL

    Alright and I'm gonna finish with the best part of the changelog

    Gilneas on DG KREYGASM
    ULTIMATE KREYGASM
    First of all, as you said, the melee ups rush from dg will fit really well with the forced melee focus from worgen
    One problem tho, is that worgen will have only 20 valuable melee unit on your version ....
    Wooden had increase knight limit from 8 to 12, not a big deal, but still nice, now we got 8 bears, 8 knights, 4 elites
    So I suggest you copy on LTA, remove resistant skin, and unlimit the knight

    "- Arugal is no longer summoned but will be used later as a Scourge hero."
    Can you explain?

    "- If The Tirisfal Council is formed then Jaina no longer disapears but instead she returns to her homeland of Kul'Tiras. She goes to Darkgreen as long as Boralus capital still stands and is owned by darkgreen. She is non-revivable."

    This is great, I really wanted to make a Proudmoore gameplay, with Daelin and Jaina, and I think having jaina support as Dg would not be bad at all
    Her multishot will also complete dg's lack of anti air
    It's currently a pain in the ass for dg to even kill a gargoyle, not even talking about destroyers, lose colision size archer makes them be raped by destroyers

    "- Kul Tiras is only vulnerable when all 3 Alliance bastions defending it are destroyed. (This prevents base aim.)"
    That's a good mechanic, you know what's even better? Make the same for dragonmaw and IF
    Currently Ranger balistas can easily snipe DMP without giving a fuck about gate cuz they got 1k range
    And about IF, I still see from time to time a legion tping on the back and rekting everything while his allies go through the now unprotected gate

    And those two are absolute frustrating mechanics to deal with

    "- Submarines attack reduced from 460 to 360, and attack ranged reduced, now limited to 12."
    Absolutly normal, as weird as it seems I never considered this unit as overbroken, surely because I never see it being used
    I wouldn't mind any buffs or nerfs on this one

    '- New Lordaeron Path has been re-enabled."

    PRAISE OUR LORD AND SAVIOUR GARITHOS
    GOOD BYE SHITTY LORDAERON ELITES, SHOCKWAVE IS BACK MODAFUCKA

    Anyway good job overall, besides for rangers which I'm heavily disappointed of, this was a great work from you
    The buglist is great, but one thing I'm wondering about, robo discovered, I think its him, that each time you summon an agent, a shard of power is created on the middle of the map near scholo, is that what you mean by "trigger leak"

    If yes and its good, if not then don't forget it, same shit happens with muru item, the item drops from muru and cannot be removed from inventory, and if I'm not wrong its also sometimes summoned near scholo

    Nice changelog whatsoever, a pleasure to read it was

    Cordially

    GrimmHeart

    PS : I'm sorry for this wall, but skillerino was a good teacher
    I went from a subject to another, and it might not be clear to read sorry

    PPS : If Galen is killed by forsaken, he dies even if Stromgarde is still standing
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    Last edited: Nov 8, 2018
  7. Hahay
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    Hahay

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    First of all I am very glad to see this map still being worked on, so thank you Marsh and SvnmS.

    Regarding content re-adding and patch reversal. Since you say only some of the changes from 1.20+ were removed, what exactly was left from Woodenplanks changes and what was reverted?
    For example Ranger changes means subpaths for Highborne aren't available any more?


    From my personal experience i rarely have ltf games, where there is NO civil war. If anything, it happens when the initial 6v6 is balanced and lasts long enough to satisfy the players. Given that this change was introduced to nerf/delay Legion team powerspike it might have negative impact on overall balance


    This change seems very unreasonable to me. Siege units are already one of the strongest assets any faction can possess and account for most of the dps. I think it's okay to actually require player to control them properly instead of going full BrokeBack.

    So the Illidari rework is completely reverted?


    Lich King already had plenty of time-based content( if you consider post-civil war as such) and San'Layn subpath was something blue player had to earn for himself, either by aiming Anasterian or invading Quel'thalas. Doesn't it encourage lazy meta of PvE-farming-while-waiting-for-events?

    Considering strength of Wyrmrest Accord I don't think making it any easier than now is justified.

    Honestly i liked the replacement of Halduron with Nathanos. It did actually make sense lorewise. However if Highborne subpath is no more a thing i guess they both are viable choices.

    Hopefully it's only a temporary solution before a complete rework/revamp of the faction. Considering Highborne can muster ranged forces which are on par with Ranger Corps( in current version they actually surpass them), on top of good caster/magic dmg and decent frontline, it would be great injustice to leave Rangers like this.
    Sorry, I don't see any difference here. If you want players to make varying decisions, why not allow it right from the start? I don't see any logical reason for it. What was the purpose of giving 3 base locations instead of 1? To force adaptive playstyle on grey or his enemies?

    But the whole point of gray in Lordaeron was to consume alliance time and delay their push south. At least that's how the addition of base locations and gold/exp reward was justified, wasn't it? These changes aimed to encourage grey to stay in Lordaeron.

    The "favoured strategy" or meta game will always be there. There will always be strategies that are superior to its alternatives. If you want to prevent stagnation, make players use wider variety of strategies, then you need to enable them to do so first. In this case, think of changes that will encourage players to take Noxious Glade or Scholomance over Deathknell, instead of giving the choice away completely. Deathknell's chokepoint is simply too favourable compared to other bases. On top of that you have access to coastline, which can be utilized in one way or another. Scholomance has its niche, as ilya pointed out. Now, grey has absolutely zero incentives to choose Noxious Glade over other bases. Surrounded by enemies, without any escape route, with chokepoint thats inferior to Deathknell one. Perhaps that's the field to work on?
    That's how I think this issue should be solved. By making other bases more attractive to grey, instead of forcing him to make a stand where he can't do it.
    See, I remember times, when grey that actually stayed in Scholomance and tried to defend was called out noob, since the "favoured strategy" was like this.

    Overall I just consider direction from choice to rng a degrading one, but if that's your plan for the map, so be it.
    I like this change a lot! Not sure how her kit will work with dg, though.

    Can you prevent it if BE happened before Lordaeron Path research?

    Does it mean DMC has two roars now? Scary.

    Are air units still able to attack it? Are they supposed to?

    In this fateful moment let us have a minute of silence for all the fallen Naxxramases.

    For the rest of changelog, I consider them either netural or positive. I especially like the return of WotLK score and I'm excited about the new LTF theme music. All the reterrains are well appreciated as usual. The missing paths should certainly be re-added, although they might create some unhealthy gameplay situations.
    Looking forward to trying this version out :-)
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    Last edited: Nov 8, 2018
  8. Onyx
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    Onyx GrimmHeart Darksbane Shaman

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    You a few really good points that I've missed :

    "Marshmalo said:
    - San'Layn subpath no longer requires Blood Elves to have happened but instead requires 20 minutes game time. (This isnt particularly lore correct but previously LichKing Player would have had all San'Layn content locked for most games which makes the faction less attractive to play and dependant on Reds choices.)

    Lich King already had plenty of time-based content( if you consider post-civil war as such) and San'Layn subpath was something blue player had to earn for himself, either by aiming Anasterian or invading Quel'thalas. Doesn't it encourage lazy meta of PvE-farming-while-waiting-for-events?"

    Completly agreed there, Scourge gameplay used to be : the more you fight the stronger you get
    This was the case with Forsaken, Wretched, crown and Arthas

    Scourge meta nowdays is : Creep Tol Barad first (extra gold and xp) then get go back to NR, creep everything, get Anub lvl 11, 6 ups on armor, full hp (2k on nerubians) with at least 3ups on dmg, get your 6-7 control groups, wait 20mins for civil war, launch it, get sapph and putricide (or not) for extra lvl on all heroes, then steam roll capital

    With this current meta, applied by many good scourge player, you don't even make your way through, you have your way, you have everything you need, and unless you got 5 coordinated and decent alliance players in front of you, no shit can stops you till you face Legion, that's simple, clear and efficient
    Giving Sanlyn to blue for free, no condition for it, cuz 20min is not a condition sorry, thats a BIG buff for blue

    Now lets imagine what happens, still with the current meta : you will launch plague on lordaeron with 4 heroes, gray will have 4 as well, unless deathwhisper is wooden work can't tell, so blue will have anub lvl 10-12, sapph, putricide and valanaar lvl 8, thing is after big fight, he will gain one lvl on those 3 heroes, get sapph special research, get valanaar special research, and by min 30 or less, blue will have 3 ultimates (putricide ulti sucks anyway), and that's a blue that doesn't give a fuck about legion, he wil be able to rampage his way from capital to quel without a fuck given, 4 ultimates, access to sunwell, potencially 3 more allies and gray having 4-5 heroes with at least 2 ultimates, his lichs, ebon hold

    Those are just my predictions, but I don't think in any case this is a good change, you should really revalue scourge on getting powerful by fighting rather than the opposite

    "Marshmalo said:
    - Dragonmaw Clan starts with control of the Fel Orcs at Alterac rather than orange.
    Does it mean DMC has two roars now? Scary."

    Another good fight, even though Jubei roar is less powerful than Morg's one, it can also be used to throw more breath of fire, which can have quite an impact on a 1v1 or 2v2 fight, gotta be careful on this one, I suggest the ability to be replaced, since the roar was already super strong on Oj, it can't be worse on brown, but gameplay and balance wise, gotta be careful on this one

    "Marshmalo said:
    - All Siege units no longer deal AOE damage to friendly units (Previously alot of damage would go onto friendly melee units on the front lines reducing their usefulness).
    This change seems very unreasonable to me. Siege units are already one of the strongest assets any faction can possess and account for most of the dps. I think it's okay to actually require player to control them properly instead of going full BrokeBack."

    That's sadly, a buff for Legion, but also for alliance, concerning players fighting with rangers, while on the other hand it doesn't affect undead at all
    The Splash damage from Fel Reavers is really insane, and it should absolutly not be underestimated, the impact is on both allies and ennemies, and why should it be otherwise? The Fel reavers are dealing way too much damage to not be classified as broken and in any reason should it not attack allies as well
    For rangers its quite the same thing, while it would help the player a lot by breaking its lynxs, the players should also learn to not A+move with their siege and start focusing on the backline where they should be, balistas were made to aim ennemies siege and thats what they should be doing, beep on sniping siege with their 100+ dmg splash which is not weak at all

    If a player doesn't know how to properly use his siege, that's his problem, he should learn from his mistakes instead of benefit from it
  9. Spectator
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    Spectator Adapt or Die Donator

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    I'm still terribly confused on who is allied with who when it comes to Neutrals lol?

    So we got illidari/Fel illidari/Black dragonflight

    then we have Gilneas/Scarlet Onslaught (just Scarlet i guess)/Alterec

    Then we have Twlight/Dark Iron/Fallen Nerubs.

    Still doesn't say who is free will Forsaken with or if it still exits haha.
  10. Kolladan
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    Kolladan Ambassador of the Poor Legion

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    *Looks at other chages of other factions and then looks at the Poor Legion*
    cry.jpg
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