Separate names with a comma.
Discussion in 'Lordaeron: The Foremath' started by Marshmalo, Nov 7, 2018.
i dont want to work with you togheter in real life for certain reasons now tbh LUL
First of all, I am really happy to see a new version of this map. LTF is currently very popular and it not deserves to be abandoned. There are more players than we might think who play this map.
I am a bit confused on this one, blue always goes directly fallen nerubian if he dies, right ?
Also while I am still on this subject, will there be some change about the path for fallen nerubians ? Maybe a research instead of the destruction of the frozen throne ? Because right now, you litteraly need to suicide yourself to join the old gods team, and people dont really like that. You're killing dg if he's on your team and you are considered as a troll and a team-killing player.
This will change nearly nothing. Instead of 2 fingers of death to destroy the cannon, teal will need 4. And this is the same problem for the brown canon. If you really want to prevent the aim focus on the canons, make them invulnerable until the building to which they are tied is destroyed and greatly reduce their damage to compensate. This should help against an alliance early-rush on dragonmaw port (which often lead on a brown ragequit), and make the canon useful for once. Because right now, on a game where there are decents players, canon are destroyed 2 mins after the game start. For now, they are useless as much as the rescue tunnel of Ironforge (which is still bugged).
This is a nice change but we can still easily aim dragonmaw port while his armies are elsewhere, or rush the Ironforge buidling by teleporting behind it. If you really want to prevent this, you should do as you did on every others capitals, make Ironforge and Dragonmaw Port main building invulnerable until their gate is destroyed. (Exactly like Lordaeron city)
Also, now that renegade team is deleted, on which team belong Scarlet Onslaught ? Back to the old gods ? I am really confused with the neutrals teams.
Anyways, thanks for this 0.30, it's nice to see that the creator of this map is still worrying about his creation.
As long as you don't touch my precious lumber you should be safe.
I know I talked about Cult starting before but just hear my final argument:
Let's look an example when you executed RNG near perfectly: The Dwarves Item forge
- Each of the 3 options are unique to each other : TRUE
- Each of the 3 items have the same power just different styles: TRUE, Tho some prefer some styles to the others It won't ever feel like one of them is trash the other one is super OP
- It does not hugely impact the game: TRUE
Now Let's compare that to Cult's starting randomized:
- Each of the 3 options are unique to each other: FALSE, All 3 defense positions are exactly the same style where you are defending and same strategy applies to all, the difference is just cosmetic not game-play wise. One you could argue you can escape from scholo early tho if you are fast you can escape all imo.
- Each of the 3 items have the same power just different styles: FALSE, tho some argue Scholo and Deathknell are as good everyone argues the one near Tyrs sucks. Even you kinda admitted that. Meanwhile defense style of all 3 are the near the same. This is just like gamble now with you praying to RNGJesus as cult so you don't get the absolute trash position rather with good RNG it's more about adjusting your style to what you get.
- It does not hugely impact the game: FALSE, Cult starting and early game solely depends on this, if you are in trash one like Tyrs you are kinda screwed for entirety of the early game.
Not gonna say bring the option to choose back but please do something that changes the current conditions. It can include:
- Making sure all 3 of them are balanced at the same power level so it does not feel like you are entering a lose all win all Casino when picking Cult.
- Making sure all 3 of them are unique to each other with defense styles.
or - Removing 2 or just the one Next to Tyrs cause honestly It never made sense to me why this three options where made in first place, Like I think goal was to hide Cult but honestly it just takes 2 reveals lol. Some routes to fix this are easier some harder, honestly Idc which one you choose but please the current one just feels like gambling on whether you get the good one or the horrible one at the start.
Thanks for the feedback all, I appreciate some of you havnt liked all of the changes so far, I am definitly willing to budge on some points based on the advice people have provided here. But on some points I'm not willing to compromise as I believe they are in the maps best interest.
I will update this thread with further patch notes and amendments later on!
Well 28 was hacked and 29 will be my test version so the full public release will be 30.
Regarding the DMC and Dwarf Cannons, yes the purpose of these is to slow down the south battle, I mentioned this back when they were first introduced.
DM Port is vulnerable to an alliance rush early game and the cannon was designed to force alliance to be alittle more tactical with their rush and slow down the destruction of DMP.
The Dwarfe Cannon was added to slow down Legion's conquest of the south so Alliance have more time to deal with plague before having Legion on their doorstep. If Alliance havnt atleast got undead contained before Legion hits them from south then the game usualy results in a legion win.
It just gives the allainces vs undead battle more time to resolve so hopefuly there is a clear victor whom can then battle Legion as they push northwards.
I am not willing to remove the Cannons, but a small nerf to damage may be appropriate. Though I should point out that people often over exaggerate their importance due to the high dmg output without taking into account the VERY slow attack rate.
Regarding Jaina, I actually LOVED Woodens E ability on her, but it was a dummy unit triggered ability. I am sad to see these go as well but we really must put map stability before fancy special triggers.
I never considered Dalaran to be a hero aimer faction at this is their only single target hero attack spell, what would you suggest I replace Jainas cage with? I am open to ideas.
I will stop Kalecgos from being able to summon infinate Dragons, this seems to be peoples only gripe with this subpath.
Now regarding Rangers, if its true that Highbornes arhcers are actually superior then I will need to look at that but I based my decision to limit the archers off a game where they had become extremely OP.
An example is Undead team were assaulting Quel'Thalas and Rangers created a huge army of archers which literally stoped anything from appraoching. Aboms would melt before the archer spam, they had become so buffed through high level upgrades they were unstopable when massed, so this change was designed to stop this mass spam tactic and turn them into a more elite force.
But if this change is really hated then I will reverse it and think of something else based on testing of the new version.
Rangers should not just be spaming archers, they should be using their elites and the powerful balista, and now they should also provide AA support through their new air unit.
Regarding SC, if you think they need nerfs please tell me in what way?
unfortunatly I cant make it so Nax can summon frost wyrm while its flying due to the way the Uproot ability is hard coded in WC3.
"- Arugal is no longer summoned but will be used later as a Scourge hero."
Yes Arugal will be added later on as a scourge hero as per the lore, I have content planed for scourge to replace the Nerubians which they will lose if the 14th player ever gets added. Scourge do not have Woodens Vyrkul content because I will redo their Vyrkul path if the map gets its 14th player, and will come along with a re-design of Howling Fjords and a proper Vykrul capital.
About the submarines, I was in a game where we destroyed Legion team at the Thandol Spam by nuking them with Submarines lol. Trust me they needed this nerf, it's just that most players thankfully didnt realise how OP they were so rarely got abused.
Regarding your other points, some of them have bean added tot he change list which I hope to finished before 0.30.
Which subpaths do you mean for Highborne?
Regarding the Civil War, it has been decided Legions ability to betray will be delayed for 5 minutes after Scourge, so Blue will always have preference.
Unfortunatly I do not like the Illidari rework on Woodens version so yes this has been reveresed. Illidari path is already shared with Blood Elves and Fel Horde so both have unique access to it if they wish.
Limiting BE to Illidari only when OJ has already betrayed was a bad choice and vastly decreased the impact and instances of BE when they betray and want to go neutral rather than Legion or Undead.
Regarding SanLayn, no one seems to like this change so I will reverse it, but I was trying to apeal to make blue a more popular faction by opening up their options. Blue always seems to be last to pick, hopefully the undead team will become more attractive if Undead Nerubians ever become a stand alone playable faction as Blue will have more allies. Most people seem to hate blue because it comes with a huge responsibility as a noob blue can ruin the game.
I'm sorry you prefered Nathanos on Rangers team, but I actually hated this change, Highborne should be a caster based faction and rangers should be the ones specialising in ranged attacks and high mobility. In my opinion Halduron had no place being in Highborns army.
Regarding Cults starting base, this seems to be a very controversial change but I am adament that the map is better off without their ability to chose.
The point of Greys base in Lordaeron is indeed meant to slow down alliances move to south, but currently in many games I've played the tower defense is too strong for alliance to break or they become so put off b the mass towers they actually dont other killing it and just camp it.
I even saw cases where Plague hit and Deathknell had not been destroyed.
I know these were public games and may not be with the most skilled players but I want LTF to function for public games with randoms aswell as the more skilled strategy players which we see in the forum games.
Grey gets it quite easy, they just have to defend for as long as they can and when their done have an easy mechanic which transports all their units to Northrend. This battle is meant to ahve resolved itself within 5-10 minutes of the game start, it's not something thats meant to be drawn out which seems to be the case right now, I think people have just become so used to the Deathknell towering tactic and the battle lasting awhile. It wasnt like this before and was never meant to be.
The whole point of adding in the various Cult base locations was to give some unpredictabilit to the early game, its not unpredictable if you know Cult will pick Deathknell most of the time. You asked whether I want "To force adaptive playstyle on grey or his enemies", this is exactly what I want to do! Grey needs to adapt to whereever they spawn and learn how to use each starting point to the best advantage. I don't think this is degrading to expect a player to adapt.
So regarding BE and being kicked from the alliance, yes you can prevent Garithos from doing a Donald Trump but only if you manage to research the KulTiras or Gilneas path intime before they get kicked. You will only have about one minute before Garithos path before BE get kicked.
And yes air units can still attack the long range cannons.
lol well I don't really have an opinion of how Legion canabe improved, they are already quite powerful and have a big team, what do you think Legion needs? If you can think of some good content, other than just buffs or complete paths then I am listening, so small chnages, content addition or a subfaciton choice would be considered. Full faction path suggestions are too time consuming and take up too much data to be considered at this stage.
Everyone seems to dislike this change so I think it will need to be reversed.
Oh that sounds terrible, so sorry to hear that and hope you start to get better soon Spinel! I know what you mean about getting back into map editing, it has not been easy to restart LTF work again. We missed you here!
Gilneas still starts as neutral, and Purple can still conquer it as usual, but if DG research their path they will gain it instead.
Sorry what field is this? its all in chinese so I cant read what it is?
As mentioned above Dal will still be able to conquer Gilneas and harvest it for lumber until DG decides to go Worgen. Dalaran won't get a betray path because we need atleast 1 player who stays loyal to alliance to increase the chance of alliance comebacks and Dal is too important for this team.
Why would arthas be deleted by New Lordaeron path? Is this a bug or something because arthas is meant to go to Scourge if DG choses New Lordaeron. DG now has Stromgard + Kul'tiras subpaths and Scourge + Worgen full paths, thats quite a lot of content already. (Although Kul'tiras will be taken away from them if map becomes 14 players.)
Blue dosnt always go Fallen Nerubians, it only happens if Azjol Nerub is still alive. If it dies then blue dies along with the Lich King and gets no second chance.
And that is a great idea to have blue be able to research Fallen Nerubians and give their own units to DG if they've already gone Scourge path. This kind of reworking content so its more available to players in certain situation is a good way to make better use of the huge amount of content already available, and its similiar to what I've done with Yogg Saron by making him available to both Fallen Nerubians and THC factions.
I will buff the HP of Dragonmaw Port to 10,000 as per all other important capitals, though I should stress that losing DMP dosnt actually punish brown in anyway way through their unit choices. But it if a significant blow to them if they lose their main base early game which happens alot.
Change this to false.
Fine, if king arthas + new lordaeron is compatible this sound great. I don't like black Knight of Garithos but worgen path give worgens demi heroes? And yes, in old version we lost arthas with new lordaeron. I love arthas, and king arthas still very nice if you don't want to join scourge. Arthas's heals still primordial to dg, combinate to clerics.
Mb Kultiras path for Dalaran?
Rn dg have to many path when dalaran only have ND event which need old dalaran destroyed.
Kultiras path Daelin new hero
12 Kultiras knights as mele
Mb other things
Dg get worgen event soo dalaran should get Kultiras. To much things for lordaeron and nothing for dalaran think about it
Edit can you change daelin ulti? Its really weak :/ for me
Dalaran still one of the most powerful faction where dg is weak. Only clerics are good with dg, water elementals can be dispelled, fucking bad archers knights are weak. Lordaeron need paths like worgens to still playable in alliance.
I think only about kultiras path when dg research it he only get daelin and new ship units that's all. Soo if worgen event will be event which give new and better units kultiras path will be shit cuz only daelin is nice. Kultiras is high potential event you can create a new units for example tirasian soldier which will be a strong mele units better than knight or sailor better units than archer or kultiras musketter. The same with worgen its the same think from worgen event you can get worgen knight better units than knights worgen Hunter better units than archers etc. Gilneas event is unique
cuz werewolfs etc the same with kultiras it can be unique too you can make really good things units event
About dg weakness. I am only lordaeron/dalaran player. From start i can have better upgrades than blue. Let me explain at start Arthas going for scholo cp gari for this cp in arathi galen for cp near jintha + creeping kultiras isle with hydromancers than tolbarad trying to get this cp near mardenholde and stratholme, if deathknell fall so fast cp from there too, and ofc 30 workers in lumber. Its my strategy for all my games. You can easy overpower blue and cult with your uogrades and income. In late game dg units are weak but first you must survive early game
Sorry for bad grammar and for other
I hope you understand ^___^