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Neutral teams

Discussion in 'Lordaeron: The Foremath' started by muhlta, Oct 12, 2017.

  1. muhlta
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    muhlta

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    There are few problems with those so let's try to adress them.
    1, Formation of Renegades is entirely reliant on Illidari happening. (The only one who doesn't require it
    is Ashen Verdict, but Ashen Verdict is stupid path unless FT is destroyed anyway) => Alliance has to lose initial 6v6. This is not that problematic, as it's not that uncommon scenario. Rather, problem is that HB players, instead of going Illidari, choose to join either the Undead or Legion. This imbalances the game by snowballing the victor even moreso(as Blood Elves usually ally the winning team), giving the winning team free Sunwell and another member.

    2, The core of the Old Gods team is composed by either the Twilight or Dark Iron. Problem is that only one has potential to happen in any given game. Why? Because for Twilight to happen, Legion has to lose. For Dark Iron to happen, Alliance has to lose. If either of these second chances happen, the victor simply wipes them out immediately, as their positioning is quite unfortunate. (Exception is if Cho'gall is high enough level to get Yogg-Saron, but even then he usually gets murdered by the Undead).


    My current vision is something like this:
    Whether its the Alliance or Evil who loses 6v6, both will CERTAINLY lead to the creation of the neutral team.
    For Alliance lose, it's Renegades with Illidari. (I suggest that Fel Elves and Wretched are removed as second chance, they simply imbalance the game too much. They could possibly return as the third chance, if the Illidari's Renegades objective has failed - very weak, only a support to whatever team they decide to join. Food capped at 50 or 100.)
    For Legion lose, it's Old Gods with Twilight.

    RENEGADES:

    Renegades objective: Destroy Archimonde and Frozen Throne. This encourages neutral team to attack the winning Evil team.
    If Renegades destroy Frozen Throne/Kill Lich King : Cult autotriggers Ashen Verdict. Forsaken join them.
    If Renegades kill Archimonde: Council autotriggers Syndicate. Maghteridon dies and OJ becomes part of Renegades.

    Forsaken changes: 1, Using Eye of Sargeras no longer forces Forsaken out of Undead team, but greatly weakens them as long as they remain in that team. (food cap and other things)
    2, Sentinels removed from Forsaken.
    Cult changes: 1, Can no longer go Ashen Verdict on its own.


    OLD GODS:

    Old Gods objective: Destroy Alliance. This encourages neutral team to attack the winning Alliance team.
    If Old Gods destroy Ironforge: Dwarves join them as Dark Iron.
    If Old Gods destroy Dalaran/New Dalaran: Purple joins them as Worgen.

    If Frozen Throne is destroyed by anyone, Nerubians join Old Gods by default. I think this will require defense buff of Azjol-Nerub, tho.



    THIS IS MERELY A BRAINSTORM IDEA AND NOT A FINISHED ONE. THERE MAY STILL BE A LOT OF ISSUES THAT NEED TO BE SOLVED.
    THE BASIC PREMISE IS THAT LOSING TEAM NOW TURNS NEUTRAL AND SLOWLY GATHERS IT'S FULL STRENGTH.
    Example: 1 Alliance loses, Undead get North and Legion gets South. Civil War gets triggered. Illidari happens and slowly get's its new members, weakens members of ongoing battle (Undead with Eye of Sargeras, Legion by attacking Outland). If succesfull they pull off a comeback by getting their objectives finished and getting new team members.
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  2. iliya
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    iliya plz balance maps or i get flamed using OP stuff! Donator

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    Winner since your analysis of the situation is perfectly on point.

    As For suggestions they are in the right direction but way way too extreme. Try to suggest changes that are in the right direction but a bit more moderate. Not saying extreme suggestions are wrong specially for LTF since some extreme changes are required since the imbalance is high. It's just extreme changes never get implanted unless for a very very good reasoning.

    However on Fel Elves and Wretched i agree tho! Those paths both are huge imbalance to the game and make games really lame by giving an winning Evil side both an ally and Sunwell on silver platter...
  3. TheKaldorei
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    TheKaldorei GirlGamer BTW Shaman Map Maker

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    your first problem is
    removing night elves


    your second problem is
    im pretty sure marshmalo said she wouldnt remove content.
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  4. EmperorFawful
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    EmperorFawful Gatsby Guardian Website Admin

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    As I said in a previous thread before: It would be far more benefitial if Twilight Hammer Clan and Dark Iron Dwarves would recieve a small buff in terms of events and if that's done, they're more likely to happen, as Brown has only the choice between staying with Legion team or going path (assuming that BDF content becomes content for either THC or Dark Iron, as there's currently no point in BDF, since it's just THC with benefits, thus destroying the entire balance of the map while being completely pointless. A path corpse, which hasn't been buried yet, I dare to say. :p )

    Having the focus on a 2-man Old Gods team would be far more benefitial for the game, as they technically have an endgame: Going to Northrend in order to make Blue their sworn Fallen Nerubian servant - which is in most cases the end game, but well... hard to know. By buffing THC and Dark Iron though it wouldn't really harm gameplay, whether Fallen Nerubians join the team or not - they're so much focused around Northrend that they make a fine support race for the endgame, if Old Gods really need this player as a supporter, but they would be fine as they are.
    Not to mention that we don't need more stuff, where we encourage Blue to rather suicide Frozen Throne to screw over his entire team.
    So 2-player Old Gods with the potential stake up to 3 members maximum would be nice - only few adjustments need to be done to make them balanced for LTF standarts tbh, while most buffs should be given to Dark Iron, since Brown as THC is still quite strong.

    I neither see the point in Ashen Verdict tbh, so I tend to say, that we don't necessarily need it. Would rather cut this path in favor of making Cult a more stable ally for Scourge team, while keeping Renegade team balanced.

    Same could be said nearly for Scarlet Onslaught. Though my main problem with Scarlet Onslaught is their content. They're perfect for Renegade team, but they need a major nerf in order to make them a balanced team member of the Renegade team. Both Red and LB on the same team with Illidan and the Scarlet Onslaught stuff is balancewise an abomination, which needs to be purged. Whether that results in getting rid of the entire Bloodlust aspect of Scarlet Crusade, which btw is a major factor of Scarlet's strength or removing Lordaeron Footmen completely for Scarlet/nerfing the Lordaeron Footmen severely is up to Marsh, as I even am not sure where to balance out Scarlet Onslaught at all!
    I only know: It needs to be on Renegade Team, if Marshmalo doesn't want to remove useless content from LTA
    and it needs to be nerfed.


    Regarding the Wretched idea - I kinda agree that we don't necessarily need Wretched and Fel Elves in LTF anymore, but it could be interesting to transfer Wretched to Pink as a path choice, where Pink needs to decide whether he goes Night Elves or San'layn.
    San'layn would be similiar to regular Pink, but with a few unit changes and Pink having instead of the Apothecaries one of the Blood Princes as a support hero for Sylvanas. Going San'layn results in Pink becoming a permanent team mate of Scourge (which means that Scourge can become a 4-man team at best).
    If Pink goes Night Elves, it's same buiseness as usual.

    If however, Illidan goes to Dalaran and triggers the Eye, Pink automatically switches into the Renegade team and can't choose to go any path. He has to stick then with Renegade team, which would be 2-4 members in total, if we get rid of Ashen Verdict and implement Scarlet Crusade (unless I haven't forgotten a faction).
    Regulary I guess Renegade team would be 2-3 players in most cases, while assumingly being a majority of the time Illidari-Scarlet-(Forsaken) due to all those three factions controlling stuff in northern Lordaeron and Quel'Thalas.

    And if we go by example, how teams could look like split up in optimal case after Civil War gets triggered and, let's say, Lordaeron capital and Dalaran got destroyed by Evil:

    - New Dalaran - Purple
    - Sentinels - Pink

    - Scourge - Blue
    - Cult - Gray
    - Scourge - Dark Green

    - Legion - Teal
    - Fel Horde - Oj
    - Shadow Council - Green

    - THC - Brown
    - Dark Iron - Yellow

    - Illidari - Red
    - Scarlet Crusade - LB

    And yeah, I'm aware that Alliance would be fucked in some constellations, thus making it maybe better if LB can remain next to Purple a regular ally of the Alliance (so Pink has more reasons to go Renegade team), but yeah... I think if we simplify the system the way I proposed it above, faction shifts are more balanced, while being more bearable for smaller teams like Scourge. And people actually dare to betray their allies.
    Thus making it easier for everyone else.
  5. LoboTron11
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    LoboTron11 Grandaster of the Shadow Council

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    WTF are that changes on the Undead team!? Eye of Sargeras no longer makes Forsaken be Renegades? Cult can't make Ashen Veredict if LK isn't death?
    WHY YOU WANT TO DESTROY THE POOR LORE WE HAVE IN THIS GAME
    The fking Ashen Veredict (I'm still triggered with @Marshmalo because of calling this path like that with the events it triggers) is the only way for Gray to have something different (And, tbh, right now this path is not the best in the game, we all know that), if you just change this into a Forced path when it's soo unbalanced right now, the first you'll do is destroying both Cult and SH game, why? Because this path NEEDS TYR'S HAND, and that base is the core of SH / AC because if Uther dies, your best defense point is there, and even if you go Onslaught, your best base and your best position IS Tyr's Hand, because Onslaught Island have that op aura that no one will come to you, and you'll surelly change to The Risen path if someone try or you surelly lose, but, talking again about Argent Crusade, Tirion Fordring is bound to Tyr's Hand... why the hell will you destroy LB gameplay just for a guy who lost?
    And now... Forsaken... well... tbh, we have too many NElves with Maiev there ( @TheKaldorei will get triggered in 3... 2... 1...), now talking seriously, I know that forcing you to lose your team when you're probably in a fight Scourge team vs anyone else, and in the moment you're winning, Illidan comes to "Let's fuck TFT" and kicks you out of Scourge team, making your "Allies" come to destroy you... well... "That was the moment that he would knew... he fucked up", I think that idea is okay, but... not exactly like you said it, why should Sylvanas get caps when she's still in the Scourge team? Why not giving Forsaken the option to stay on Scourge team (Giving some caps to her allies) or leave the Scourge team?
    Something like: Forsaken path --> Free Will - Requires: Forsaken (Captain obvius is here men), TFT Damaged (Like when blue is able to get Fallen Nerubs if TFT is dmged), and maybe something more.

    Edit: PD: Sry for that words men, just got soo triggered
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  6. Elbadruhel
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    Elbadruhel

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    @muhlta i agree that once u lose Quelthalas u trigger BE, and then u go Illidari (renegade) and u cant go fel elve or wretched till Illidans die, for example.

    But i dont agree in making other paths "forced", Worgen and ashen must be a choice, the same for syndicate and dark iron. If u make neutrals teams get members just KILLING them and not allowing him to choice to join u... U are indeed DELETING neutral teams from game, because no one will be able to kill a faction of a team alone. Illidari vs all legion team to kill SC? he wont get it. THC vs all alliance to kill IF alone? Never seen.

    So u must allow factions to betray and join neutrals as it is nowadays, or u are fucking all neutral teams.
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  7. LoboTron11
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    LoboTron11 Grandaster of the Shadow Council

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    Onslaught*
    As long as I remember, Scarlet Crusade stands totally alone
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  8. iliya
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    iliya plz balance maps or i get flamed using OP stuff! Donator

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    Calm down no one is gonna take away your beloved. @DarthLenin Was vanquished thousands of years ago and his evil may never come to hunt again.


    maybe?
  9. Onyx
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    Onyx GrimmHeart Darksbane

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    Muhita, don't mind me, but your vision of Neutrals is shit
    The only thing you are right is that Renegades are based on Illidari

    I'll start with Renegades :
    Illidari as Highborne need some real buff, it's army come directly from LTA, but it's way too weak, their naga elites aren't that great and to be honest each time I go Illidari, I get my Blood Elf sorcs rather than the Naga ones
    Secondly, when you turn Illidari what you don't want is stay Outland, you get Illidan, you destroy Ecodome is possible and then you tp back to Quel and get ready to absorb well on Illidan
    The Illidari trigger should weaken Tichondrius and give him less stats/hp to allow the player to get the Skull which is very important for Illidari, not because of the Empowered form but for the possibility of reviving Illidan

    Secondly, you will most likely lose your naga base in Outland and make Lady Vasjh unrevivable, so you're stucked with only Kael as revivable Hero, you can also get Lor'Themar, revivable until Silvermoon falls I think, but that's bug abuse and by definition : not fair. The Oj player won't betray straight away unless it's planned, and a Maggy to kill is a big challenge, once again because Illidari sucks

    Oj as Fel Horde is like 10% of it's power as Dark Horde, which is one more reason to betray, by going Fel Horde you're stucked with some shitty units : 1 caster, doom canon, barracks orcs units
    You elites are nice, but you from he 11 hero squad possibility to 7 max
    (Maggy/Rend/Kargath/Teron/Voone/Nef +Pitlords + Jubei) Vs (Kargath/Teron/Nef + Dhs + Jubei?)
    Does jubei stays as Fel?
    Anyway, both Fel Horde and Illidari needs buff, Forsaken is not viable until superplague, Ashen kinda sucks but its overwhelming summons is really good and cannot instantly killed by aoe and disppells from Old Gods if the player summon over time and not everything in a row, syndicate sucks but it's getting some buffs, which are nice but I don't think those buffs are enough

    On the Other hand, old gods are really powerful
    Di and THC are really strong and should be nerfed but Scarlet Onslaught and Fallen Nerubians need buffs
    So instead of being : THC (1.5 manpower) Di (1.5) SO (0.5) FN (0.5) we could have a 1 man strenght everywhere
    I know Scarlet Hero squadd is really tough, but compared to LTA it sucks, and its army sucks as well

    The way to fix Scarlet Onslaught is actually to make it like LTA
    By this I don't mean make SO broken as fuck cuz it should not be the case
    What I mean is that Silverhand should not be able to go Argent Crusade without going through Scarlet Crusade
    An Alexandros Mograine starting for Silverhand would be required with the possibility to get Ashbringer
    But the Ashbringer option would still be available as SC and SO

    Which means that SIlverhand will be buffed, Scarlet Crusade as well but Argent Crusade will be nerf and alliance player will get really strong only as Draenei alliance and that Paladins Knights as Argent Crusade would be removed until Ddraenei Alliance
    As a compensation, if the Lordaeron player goes Scourge without getting Galen, Argent player will be able to get him as Argent and as Draenei, this would also open the possibility for Forsaken to get Galen more often

    The lock on Argent until Scarlet would alreay increase the number of Scarlet Onslaught players quite a lot, also if its heroes could be revivable whatever happens (appart from Isilien and Abbendis)
    Because you can get your capitals very easiliy destroyed as Scarlet and you have bigger chances to win by just going south or going NR with your ally
    Losing Renault means 2 heroes less ....
    Sure after this you can still go Risen bu only for the lulz cuz you can't do much as Risen

    To sum up about Old Gods formation :
    To the players that think Scarlet Onslaught never happens and should be removed
    Well, people are wrong even if SO happens mainly when OG are pre-planned it doesn't never happen without planning it
    The Formation of Dark Iron+ Twlight IS NOT DUE to Alliance or Legion fall
    One of the best moment for those 2 to turn is at 15mins, the dwarf player rush Blackrock, making Rend unrevivabl and locking Nefarian while Brown goes north, destroys Aeria Peak and get 2 more chokepoints to hold as much as possible until plague
    The gate in front of Aeria and the Bridge, and the player won't have its canon snipped same for dwarf
    When plague happens alliance will stop pushing dragonmaw, twilight will happen, and both DI THC will go outland and Legion can't do shit until Civil War with the Fel Reavers and will do even less on the Next version because of no Maggy and Pitlords

    That's how strong the Old Gods are, and how they are formed
    The 2v3 in the south without Civil War often results in OG victory especially if Scarlet joined them, its aiming power is gorgeous and Shadow squad or dreadsquad can't do shit to kill Scarlet squad, even Maggy is really weak to Scarlet squad
    For those who don't believe me, I can bring some of my gameplays and people will shut the fuck up

    After the evil defeat, Old Gods won't go Lordaeron unless alliance is pushing south but will go NR to get yogg and their last ally
    They can also diretly tp at the west of throne if scourge didn't take care of SO

    The Hardest fights I had as Old Gods were against a full Scourge alliance and Alliance without Scarlet betraying
    In any case I struggled against Legion even after Civil War, OG aoe can wipe out the Fel reavers like shit
    And Nether drakes + Gryphons destroy Legion frontline like shit, and if SO get his hero squad with only lvl 8 on each heroes Evil is quite fucked

    One way to destroy old gods as Evil is to not civil war, to bring undeads in south and alliance will push from north
    This is the deadliest way to kill Old Gods

    About Renegades, it's much more complicated, you can get rekt against any team that has more people than you
    The key as Renegades is a mass betraying that join your side to overwhelm the ennemy team since all renegades army sucks and are weak compared to nay other team

    I lastly tried quite a lot to go Illidari to find a good way to win but it's hard as fuck, I'll try to bring some "analysis" really soon but same OG, if renegades want to win, they should not wait for one of the big teams to fall and need to betray while it's still "50-50"

    That's what I think of Neutrals, after around 500 games with 90% of betrayals from me and around 60% of me as neutral
    You may not agree, that's fine, that's what I think, but I can't agree with muhita's thoughts about Neutrals, that's just not possible because I think there's clearly a lack of experience in this

    I don't think forcing people to join some neutral alliances and removing paths is a good way to fix it
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  10. muhlta
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    muhlta

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    That's the point of opening this thread. I just offered a direction all of this could go... the specifics are up to the community.

    Actually, you are right. I didn't necessarily mean to remove Sentinels overall, just to remove them from the pink. I think Sentinels would be another perfect thing for Blood Elves should the Illidari fail - So you can choose between Fel Elves, Wretched and Sentinels, giving you a possibility to join most team teams as a support. Why should HB get this privilege over all others? Well, I think their gameplay as Highborne is rather blank, so that would be a way to compensate for it.

    (Looks like most of my reply has been lost for good, sorry. :p)

    The Cult turning Ashen Verdict after Old Gods destroy Frozen Throne assumes that Tyr Hand has already been risen as Acherus. It would be a reward for gray (who we can assume was doing quite good in the game, considering he had Acherus), maybe even if his blue messed up and FT got destroyed. If gray hadn't taken it before TF get's destroyed, he would be left alone for the remainder of the game, meaning pretty much game over for him. The current Ashen Verdict is not healthy tbh, the idea of mechanic supports premade lobbys and gamethrowing. With my idea, it allows Gray to continue in the game with different playstyle and different team, rewarding him for doing well as Undead.

    The caps for Forsaken because they are the second chance. If Eye of Sargeras happens, Forsaken should be encouraged to leave and join Renegades. But they shouldn't necessarily be forced to do so. The reason is following: Imagine a scenario where Undead win the game (to prove a point, have a Forsaken player be a big reason of that). Illidari happens at the end of the game for lulz and forces Forsaken out. That feels really shitty, doesn't it? With this in mind, there are 2 posibilities that can be done when Eye of Sargeras happens: Either buff Forsaken when they join Renegade, or nerf them when they decide to stay with Undead - for example, with food cap. Keep in mind that MAIN OBJECTIVE OF THE GAME IS TO BE THE WINNING TEAM, not to use all of your paths - it may be more plausible for Forsaken to be weakened (my idea) and stay with Undead than it is to transfer to a losing team. THIS CHOICE SHOULD BE UPON FORSAKEN PLAYER TO MAKE, NOT THE ILLIDARI PLAYER.

    You can't give a choice to a player in this regard. Why? Because its breaks a game. There is NO reason for anyone in a winning team to ever betray - that is either premade teaming up or just simply gamethrowing. The objective of the map is to be in the winning team in the end. You may be able to justify betrayals by joining the enemy team, when your team has lost. But if you betray and you are in the winning team, I am sure your old teammates wouldn't be happy, especially if that would result in them losing the game in the end. LTF is a team game and should be thought of as such - you should try your hardest to win with your CURRENT team.
    The map is however, lacking in a mechanics that put a certain threshold to this and the results are things like DG running around with 0 cps and his hero squad while denying Arthas etc...
    This is one of the things that has to be adressed in order to improve LTF. One of the many possible solutions to this is exactly the kind of suggestion that I have made: Destroying capitals of your enemies. That is, in my opinion, sufficient enough of an achievement to make the faction change reasonable. It is not perfect, but it is much better what we have now, in terms of "betrayals".

    The point of this thread is not to discuss balance issues. These would have to be adressed over time, if such changes made it into the game. I take it as a given that buffs and nerfs would be necessary in order to support this new system.
    I dislike the entire Illidari not going Outland thingy. That's why I have proposed for Highborne to choose path only when Silvermoon is destroyed. Illidari/Renegades should go Outland/Northrend and attack Evil team, while Undead and Legion fight themselves. If that requires buffs to Renegades/Illidari, so be it. But teleporting back and absorbing sunwell with Illidan is one of the more stupid things in LTF.
    I don't think Old Gods/DI should be nerfed. Rather, I believe that Illidari and Old Gods/DI(let's say, whichever happens first) should be the strongest faction by far in their team. That is to give them necessary power to allow them to get their other team members. It also holds true to whatever these neutral teams were in the beginning: solo, but strong factions.
    You talk about preplanned betrayal of Dwarves/Dragonmaw as the best strat possible, which is the exact scenario that I want to PREVENT. The success of neutrals shouldn't be based on premades and gamethrows.
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