Today, I want to talk about this subject. Scourge becoming Forsaken when he dies and spawning in hostile Lordaeron lands has been a thing since.....forever. The reasons for this is clear: People want Forsaken and Undead Sylvanas in the map because of how important she is. The problem with this is: The design of this is garbage. Nearly 50% of the time Scourge dies to North Alliance and then proceeds to...spawn in the middle of a hostile land with no income, facing Purple and Orange with vasts amounts of gold. Realistically there isnt a snowballs chance in hell for Forsaken to win from this. And even if we consideered buffing Forsaken, give them Undercity as a superbase, should we? It would be a boring portal camp war that NA had to fight after killing red, resulting in the only fight where a player would have to be killed twice in succesion. I dont like that solution and it goes against the design goal of all other second chances: Start in another area than where you lost. Traditionally all developers of Azeroth Wars maps have ignored this problem and as a result Red dying is usually an autoleave as everyone knows that Forsaken isnt viable. So what could be done about this? 1. Massive Undercity tower camp base, generally alot stronger Forsaken. See above why I do not like this. 2. Ignore the problem. Atleast this map has Nerubian as alternative second chance which are slightly viable (by running away) but not much. 3. Redesign Reds second chance into something else that follows the rules of other second chances. Option 3 probably means getting rid of Forsaken altogether. They are a faction that basically never has seen play and their very existance is very scetchy lore wise (Eye of Sargeras on Throne should be needed) and on top of that Orange has living Sylvanas, meaning that you cant just spawn in with Undead Sylvanas at any time. It would be absurd to give another player Forsaken as a second (swap with red) and when that event triggered, Sylvanas just...died. Stupid. Instead Red's second chance would be one of: Pirates, Ahn'Quiraj, Shen'dralar or some faction on the Broken Isles, probably Nightborne. The only argument against this is that people like Undead Sylvanas and just having her in the map, even if its a shitty dead event might be preferable to them. 4. Two second chances for Red with Forsaken being super strong in Undercity but needs Silvermoon/Sylvanas to die before it can be activated. Otherwise he will go into another second chance, probably not Nerubian and thus have 2 viable second chances but only one can be run each game. While this sounds cool, it would be alot of work for an event that rarely would see the light of day as losing Throne in the very late game and going down to Forsaken probably means you stand no chance vs whoever beat you in the late game. Imagine Night Elves having Kalimdor and wrecked you in Northrend. Then you spawn with 2-3 Heroes, some gold and one cp in Undercity. Your chances of survival are slim. So there you have the dilemma. Many people in LR have wanted to add Undercity over the years, but it has never happened for various reasons. I want Red to have a second chance that works on its own merits which isnt the case right now for Forsaken or Nerubians. What do you think should be done?