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The Fate of Scourge's Second Chance?

Discussion in 'The Third War' started by Sukramo, Jan 11, 2017.

  1. Sukramo
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    Sukramo The Sane Map Maker

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    Today, I want to talk about this subject. Scourge becoming Forsaken when he dies and spawning in hostile Lordaeron lands has been a thing since.....forever.

    The reasons for this is clear: People want Forsaken and Undead Sylvanas in the map because of how important she is.

    The problem with this is: The design of this is garbage. Nearly 50% of the time Scourge dies to North Alliance and then proceeds to...spawn in the middle of a hostile land with no income, facing Purple and Orange with vasts amounts of gold. Realistically there isnt a snowballs chance in hell for Forsaken to win from this. And even if we consideered buffing Forsaken, give them Undercity as a superbase, should we? It would be a boring portal camp war that NA had to fight after killing red, resulting in the only fight where a player would have to be killed twice in succesion.

    I dont like that solution and it goes against the design goal of all other second chances: Start in another area than where you lost.

    Traditionally all developers of Azeroth Wars maps have ignored this problem and as a result Red dying is usually an autoleave as everyone knows that Forsaken isnt viable.

    So what could be done about this?

    1. Massive Undercity tower camp base, generally alot stronger Forsaken. See above why I do not like this.
    2. Ignore the problem. Atleast this map has Nerubian as alternative second chance which are slightly viable (by running away) but not much.
    3. Redesign Reds second chance into something else that follows the rules of other second chances.

    Option 3 probably means getting rid of Forsaken altogether. They are a faction that basically never has seen play and their very existance is very scetchy lore wise (Eye of Sargeras on Throne should be needed) and on top of that Orange has living Sylvanas, meaning that you cant just spawn in with Undead Sylvanas at any time. It would be absurd to give another player Forsaken as a second (swap with red) and when that event triggered, Sylvanas just...died. Stupid.

    Instead Red's second chance would be one of: Pirates, Ahn'Quiraj, Shen'dralar or some faction on the Broken Isles, probably Nightborne. The only argument against this is that people like Undead Sylvanas and just having her in the map, even if its a shitty dead event might be preferable to them.

    4. Two second chances for Red with Forsaken being super strong in Undercity but needs Silvermoon/Sylvanas to die before it can be activated. Otherwise he will go into another second chance, probably not Nerubian and thus have 2 viable second chances but only one can be run each game. While this sounds cool, it would be alot of work for an event that rarely would see the light of day as losing Throne in the very late game and going down to Forsaken probably means you stand no chance vs whoever beat you in the late game. Imagine Night Elves having Kalimdor and wrecked you in Northrend. Then you spawn with 2-3 Heroes, some gold and one cp in Undercity. Your chances of survival are slim.


    So there you have the dilemma. Many people in LR have wanted to add Undercity over the years, but it has never happened for various reasons. I want Red to have a second chance that works on its own merits which isnt the case right now for Forsaken or Nerubians. What do you think should be done?
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  2. TheKaldorei
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    TheKaldorei Meme Goddess Map Maker

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    Give him Vrykul in Stormheim
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  3. sage67712
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    sage67712 Brigand

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    Ahn'qiraj ftw, It's clearly the best choice we need some old god love
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  4. Kolladan
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    Kolladan Ambassador of the Poor Legion

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    Lich Queen Sylvanas?
  5. Thebig061
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    Thebig061 Mad Prince

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    Nightborne Or Shen'dralar.
  6. EmperorFawful
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    EmperorFawful Gatsby Guardian Website Admin

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    Go for Pandaren.
    Everyone will love you, if horrific Undeads get turned into the race, being featured in WoW's most beloved expansion after Cata. <3
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  7. Excalibur
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    Excalibur

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    Sylvanas is not no, red can do so.
    In the red to get Silvermoon City, you can give up their original forces to choose the forgotten, this will lose most of their original units and buildings, but will not lose the original occupation of the area.
    So red can be used as a new faction to continue the game, and will not let Sylvanas become a bad set.

    I think TTW can have more factions to enrich the content of the game.
    Purple can have the Silver Expeditionary Army, Tirion Fordding.
    Orange can have a new Dalaran, dwarves can also choose frost pulse dwarves.
    After the failure of the gray can choose bronze dragon, brown failure can choose Green Dragon.
    Sentinel can also choose the upper elves after his failure.
    I look forward to more content in future releases.
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 11, 2017
  8. Sukramo
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    Sukramo The Sane Map Maker

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    I know this isnt meant seriously but ill give you some explantion about why no Pandaria:

    1. No room. Would require moving Outland which has been tried and didnt work path wise.
    2. Having to get 10+ models just for it. No thanks.
    3. Too many creeps on too large land changing gameplay. Large creep continent is planned for Broke Isles as it is.

    Other than that, Mists is defintly one of Wow's best expansion. Cata was crap, WOD was pretty bad. The joke about Pandas pales in comparison to a very well organized expansion with the best story telling to date. Basically I dont consider "LolPandas" to be a good argument for why they shouldnt be in the map.
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  9. hexaotl
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    hexaotl Brigand

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    What about giving red forsaken, but let him choose between 3-4 different spawn points so he can spawn when/where he wants. Ofc just waiting wont help, so give Forsaken vision over Lordaeron, and a building like oranges Council of Six that have abilities that have range over Lordaeron/Dalaran/Gilneas. This building could have manipulative abilities aimed at weakening NA (everything from stealing income, to AoE possession or somehting fun like that, the abilities should thematically fit with Forsaken) and making ready for Sylvanas and her army to spawn at a spot chosen by red.

    Maybe reds building could have an ability to temporarily make orange and purple unally (like green and teal), to symbolize sneaky banshees possessing commanders or other important people, disrupting their alliance. This would make it very hard for orange and purple to gang up on red, as at any moment they might unally. Of course this ability should perhaps only be available in the first 15 minutes after Sylvanas and her army spawns, to stop red from just saving it for a time when oj/purp are fighting someone else.
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2017
  10. Sukramo
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    Sukramo The Sane Map Maker

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    Keep in mind that most times that red dies, 90% ish, Orange will still be alive so Nerubians will be the go-to second chances. Only when Orange is dead in Silvermoon and red dies would Undercity spawn. Imagine how awkward that would be if Purple still owned capital and Forsaken spawned under him.

    Changing where Sylvanas spawns does not matter much, she is still outside in the desert and must almost always run to survive. In fact, spawning her in Undercity might even lower her odds of survival, atleast with ships there is a faint chance to live. Forsaken still fit very poorly with how the map is played. Still, its probably easiest to just add Undercity and change out Nerbians for something else.